Travelgate Depositions

WILLIAM H. KENNEDY, III



   COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT
   
   U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
   
   WASHINGTON, D.C.
   
   - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
   
   :
   
   In the matter of: :
   
   :
   
   WHITE HOUSE TRAVEL : DEPOSITION OF
   
   : WILLIAM H. KENNEDY, III
   
   :
   
   - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
   
   Tuesday, June 18, 1996
   
   Washington, D.C.
   
   The deposition in the above matter was held in Room 2203, Rayburn
   House Office Building, commencing at 9:35 a.m.
   
   Appearances:
   
   Staff Present for the Government Reform and Oversight Committee:
   Barbara Comstock, Investigative Counsel; Barbara Olson, Chief Counsel;
   Laurie Taylor, Assistant Counsel; Kristi Remington, Investigator; and
   Donald Goldberg, Minority, Assistant to Counsel.
   
   For WILLIAM H. KENNEDY, III:
   
   JOHN CONRAD HANKS, ESQ.
   
   WILLIAM F. COFFIELD, ESQ.
   
   Sharp & Lankford
   
   1785 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W.
   
   Washington, D.C. 20036
   
   Ms. Comstock. We are on the record this morning for the deposition of
   Bill Kennedy, which will be administered under oath.
   
   I will identify the people present in the room. My name is Barbara
   Comstock; I am a Majority investigative counsel. Laurie Taylor is
   assistant counsel. Our chief investigative counsel, Barbara Olson, is
   here and also Kristi Remington, assistant counsel in our office. Don
   Goldberg from the Minority staff is also present.
   
   We are conducting this deposition pursuant to House Resolution 369,
   which I believe you are familiar with, Mr. Kennedy, from a previous
   deposition so I will not go through the previous statement of scope
   this morning.
   
   THEREUPON,
   
   WILLIAM H. KENNEDY, III,
   
   a witness, was called for examination by counsel, and after having
   been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
   
   EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
   
   Q Mr. Kennedy, you joined the White House Counsel's Office in March of
   '93; is that correct?
   
   A No, that's not correct. February of '93.
   
   Q Okay. Was it late February?
   
   A Nope. First week of February.
   
   Q Okay. And do you know who was involved in your hiring?
   
   A With specificity, no.
   
   Q Did the First Lady have any involvement in your hiring?
   
   A She did.
   
   Q Do you know if the First Lady was involved in hiring Mr. Nussbaum at
   all?
   
   A I can't answer that.
   
   Q Do you know if the First Lady was involved in hiring Mr. Foster at
   all?
   
   A I presume she was. I don't know that directly.
   
   Q Do you know if the First Lady was involved at all with the hiring of
   Craig Livingston in your office?
   
   A I don't believe she was. I do not know one way or the other. I don't
   believe so.
   
   Q Do you recall ever saying to anyone that the First Lady wanted to
   have Craig Livingston in the position at the Security Office at the
   White House?
   
   A Me ever saying that?
   
   Q Yes.
   
   A I never said that.
   
   Q Do you recall when you got your security clearance when you were at
   the White House?
   
   A Huh-uh. No.
   
   Q Do you know who adjudicated your file?
   
   A I do not.
   
   Q Do you know if there were any tax problems that came to anyone's
   attention in your file when you first came to the White House in 1993?
   
   A I decline to talk about my file. I've never seen it. I don't know
   what's in it.
   
   Q Did there come a time when you had some nanny tax problems?
   
   A There were allegations of those problems, yes.
   
   Q And had you informed anyone in the counsel's office about those tax
   problems?
   
   A I did.
   
   Q And who did you inform?
   
   A Vince Foster.
   
   Q Had you informed anyone else besides Mr. Foster?
   
   A No. Well, I mean the answer is yes; when the allegations hit the
   press, yes, I talked to Mr. Nussbaum.
   
   Q And what did you tell Mr. Nussbaum?
   
   A That the allegations were false.
   
   Q And why was that?
   
   A Why was that what?
   
   Q Why were they false?
   
   A They weren't true.
   
   Mr. Coffield. I remember -- I can't remember with specificity going
   through the scope of the investigation, but I don't think it's going
   to wade into his tax problems with his nanny.
   
   Ms. Comstock. No, I am trying to find out who he talked with about
   these problems.
   
   BY MS. COMSTOCK:
   
   Q Did you ever have any discussions with anybody in the counsel's
   office about the suitability of Craig Livingston for this position?
   
   A I need to amplify an answer, I have been thinking about your
   previous question. These allegations about nanny problems came up at a
   time when Bernie Nussbaum was leaving and Lloyd Cutler was present, so
   I also discussed them with Lloyd Cutler.
   
   Q Thank you for clarifying that.
   
   A You asked a question?
   
   Q Why don't I go back. You don't know who hired Craig Livingston or
   how he came to have the position as Director of White House Personnel
   Security?
   
   A No, Craig Livingston had been identified as being sort of the person
   for that post when I arrived.
   
   Q Do you know who identified him as that person to be in charge of
   that?
   
   A No, I do not.
   
   Q Do you know if it was somebody in the counsel's office?
   
   A I do not know.
   
   Q Do you know if Bruce Lindsey was involved in his hiring?
   
   A I don't think Bruce Lindsey was, but I don't know.
   
   Q At that time was Mr. Lindsey in charge of personnel?
   
   A He was in charge of Presidential personnel, yeah.
   
   Q Did there come a time when you had any discussions with Mr.
   Livingston about any concerns that you had about his background?
   
   A Yes, there were.
   
   Q And could you describe what those conversations were?
   
   Mr. Coffield. I don't think he can under the Privacy Act.
   
   BY MS. COMSTOCK:
   
   Q Did you ever express to anybody any --
   
   The Witness. Let me discuss something with my counsel.
   
   [Witness confers with counsel.]
   
   Mr. Goldberg. Would you read the previous question.
   
   [The reporter read back as requested.]
   
   BY MS. COMSTOCK:
   
   Q I think we will stay away from anything that you know for privacy
   matters.
   
   Mr. Coffield. And his concern is, too, whether it enters into a
   privileged area, too.
   
   BY MS. COMSTOCK:
   
   Q Why don't we stick to -- did you ever have any discussions with
   anyone in the counsel's office about any concerns that you had about
   Craig Livingston's suitability for the position he was in at the White
   House?
   
   A Yes, I discussed them with Vince Foster, deputy White House counsel
   at the time.
   
   Q And did Mr. Foster express an opinion on whether Mr. Livingston was
   a suitable individual for the position of heading up White House
   Personnel Security?
   
   A No, he didn't -- you know, he didn't know Craig any more than I did
   when I arrived, and he suggested that I -- I can't remember exactly --
   he suggested that I talk with someone named Christine Varney who
   worked at the White House who had worked with Craig in the campaign.
   
   Q And did you do so?
   
   A I did.
   
   Q Okay. Can you tell us what Ms. --
   
   A I'm sorry; I mean what I was discussing was stuff contained in
   Craig's background and I don't believe I can discuss that.
   
   Q Did there come a time when you considered having somebody else in
   that position?
   
   A No, first of all, it wasn't my decision to make, and, second of all,
   the only concerns I had concerned these matters which were not -- I
   don't know how to describe them. They were items of concern, but they
   were not killers as it were. And once they were discussed, that was
   the end of that.
   
   Q Do you know whose decision it would have been to change Mr.
   Livingston from that position?
   
   A You're asking me to speculate. I don't know. I do not know how Craig
   was identified for this job. It was done before I got here. I do not
   know. You know, it would have probably gone through normal channels in
   the White House, okay? But at this point in time early in February or
   -- well, it would have been a little bit later, those channels were
   still in the process of being worked out.
   
   Q Do you have any idea what channel this went through to hire Mr.
   Livingston?
   
   A I do not. I'm sorry.
   
   Q And you didn't know who you needed to talk to if you didn't want him
   to be in that position?
   
   A Well, I mean obviously, I followed -- I talked to Mr. Foster about
   these concerns. Okay? And that's where I thought I was supposed to go.
   
   Q Do you know if Mr. Foster ever raised this with anybody above him?
   
   A I do not know.
   
   Q Did he ever say anything to you after that he had talked to anybody
   else about Mr. Livingston?
   
   A He did not. He did not.
   
   Q Do you know if Mr. McLarty was ever consulted on Mr. Livingston's
   suitability?
   
   A I do not know. To my knowledge, he was not, but I can't say that
   across the board. I just don't know.
   
   Q Were you aware that reviewing background files was a sensitive
   position in need of attention to detail and high integrity?
   
   A You bet.
   
   Q Did Craig Livingston meet this description in this position?
   
   A Yeah, I think so.
   
   Q What in his background made you think this was a position that he
   was suitable for?
   
   A What background are we talking about?
   
   Q What about Craig Livingston made you feel that he would be an
   appropriate person for this position?
   
   A Craig Livingston had been identified for this position before I got
   here. That decision was made by others. I came to know Craig as an
   honest, hard working person. I felt he had sufficient attention to
   detail to deal with this job. Overall, I thought then and think now
   he's done an okay job with it. I really have to say I don't understand
   your question I'm trying to respond to.
   
   Q What efforts did you take to make sure that Craig had the proper
   training for this position?
   
   A Craig had no experience in these matters. Neither did I, and so we
   engaged in OJT, on-the-job training. He got as many briefings as his
   schedule would allow to allow him to learn security procedures. He
   worked intensively with Ms. Gemmell, she was the former director of
   the office, and learned as much from her as he could. He just did his
   best to get up to speed. I helped him whenever and wherever I could.
   
   Q Do you know who provided him with briefings?
   
   A You'd have to ask him. I don't know. I think he received some
   briefings from the Secret Service. I think he received some briefings
   from the CIA. He may have gotten some from the FBI. You'd have to ask
   him. But I know he was fairly diligent in trying to get up to speed on
   the things he should be doing.
   
   Q Were you aware of him also working on advance at this time at the
   White House?
   
   A I don't recall him -- I mean, you'd have to tell me what your
   definition of "advance" is.
   
   Q Going on trips, working on setting up advance for trips and making
   arrangements such as he had done during the campaign.
   
   A What time frame are we talking about here?
   
   Q In 1993.
   
   A He didn't do very much of that. He did some of that. He also helped
   in arranging security for and assisting in the conducting of events at
   the White House. He did some advance work, but not very much, if I
   recall correctly.
   
   RPTS COLCHICO
   
   DCMN QUINTERO
   
   [9:50 a.m.]
   
   Q Okay. You had mentioned Ms. Gemmell. I believe Jane Dannenhauer,
   actually, had be the prior director of the office.
   
   A You may be right. I may have their titling confused, but Nancy had
   been in the office for a long time.
   
   Q Okay. Were you aware of whether or not Ms. Dannenhauer had split her
   duties between Advance and Personnel Security?
   
   A I don't know -- I have only a superficial knowledge of sort of how
   they operated.
   
   Q What type of training did you get in this background?
   
   A In what background?
   
   Q In working on background investigations in security matters?
   
   A Not as intensively as Craig got, but I did reading on it and tried
   to understand the policies and procedures, received some briefings
   myself from the CIA and talked to the FBI about how they did things,
   questioned Ms. Gemmell and to a lesser extent Ms. Dannenhauer about
   how they operated things.
   
   Q Do you recall what you read?
   
   A No. I can't recall the details. There are a number of manuals that
   you can get your hands on about how backgrounds are conducted, the
   standards that you use, the policy and procedures manuals.
   
   Q Do you recall who gave those to you?
   
   A I got -- you know, I can't recall specifically. Some were there in
   the Security Office. Some were available in the OEOB Library. Bits and
   pieces came in from the agencies that we dealt with. I can't remember
   specifically.
   
   Q I believe I had asked you if you had ever told anyone that the First
   Lady wanted Craig in this position. But I also wanted to ask you did
   the First Lady ever tell you that she wanted Craig Livingstone in this
   position?
   
   A No.
   
   Q Could you describe what type of supervision you did of Craig
   Livingstone in this position?
   
   A I did not supervise Craig on a day-to-day basis. I had another
   full-time job of my own. Craig was to run the Office of White House
   Personnel Security. It was his job to make that office and that
   function work. And we worked out arrangements where he brought
   problems to me that he thought had risen to the level that I needed to
   give them attention.
   
   Q Can you describe what your other full-time job was?
   
   A I was clearing presidential appointees, PASs, PAs, other
   presidential appointees, through the Office of the Counsel to the
   President.
   
   Q This was in addition to clearing all the White House personnel for
   their backgrounds?
   
   A Well, that was my primary function. Craig's primary function was
   dealing with the White House passes and he reported to me. But I
   didn't give him day-to-day supervision. He came to me when he had
   problems, if he needed help, stuff like that.
   
   Q All right. Could you describe what Craig's role was in this process?
   
   A In which process?
   
   Q In the backgrounds and the clearances.
   
   A Of whom?
   
   Q Of anybody.
   
   A Well, I just gave you a dichotomy. I am running a clearance process
   for presidential nominees and appointees.
   
   Q Was he involved in the presidential appointees or nominees?
   
   A Only in coordinating paperwork. He didn't do anything more
   substantive than that unless there was an intersection between a
   presidential appointee and the work that he was doing, as, for
   example, somebody holding a pass got appointed to a PSA, then I would
   interact with his office and we would interact in that process.
   
   Q So would Craig get the initial paperwork? Would it come from his
   office?
   
   A Not all of it, but some of it he would.
   
   Q Okay. What would he get?
   
   A You have to be more specific, Barbara. What are you talking about?
   
   Q I am talking about presidential appointees, what paperwork would
   Craig Livingstone have had?
   
   A I think as a matter of convenience we ran the IRS checks because
   they were coming over from the IRS. They came over as a group, and he
   would send the IRS checks on PAs and PASs and other presidential
   appointees up to our office.
   
   Q Okay. And then would they be returned to your office?
   
   A It's not a question of return. They were coming to my office because
   that's where they belonged.
   
   Q I am trying to get a sense of the paper flow here. What paper was
   going through Craig's office, if you could explain that, please?
   
   A Well, the problem that you and I are having is you are mixing apples
   and oranges.
   
   Q Why don't you explain?
   
   A Well, but I keep -- with all due respect, I keep asking you, what
   are you talking about? Just think of it this way: You have a clearance
   process for people holding White House passes. Then you have a
   clearance process for people that are -- that receive presidential
   appointees and sometimes they intersect. Most of the time they don't,
   but sometimes they do.
   
   Craig is running one. I am basically running the other. Craig is
   reporting to me. Okay?
   
   If he is having problems, if he needs help, if he wants to talk about
   something, he comes to me with it. I helped him whenever I could. I
   did everything I could to be sure that his office functioned smoothly.
   But, now, if you want to talk about one process or the other, I can
   answer your questions. But the way --
   
   Q Okay. We were on the presidential appointment process and I am
   asking you what initial -- if any initial paperwork went into Craig
   Livingstone's office.
   
   A Okay. I believe, but don't hold me to this, that as a matter of
   convenience the IRS tax-check forms came to Craig's office and came
   upstairs to us.
   
   Q Okay.
   
   A On presidential appointees.
   
   Q And to your knowledge, did Craig Livingstone review those at all?
   
   A I don't believe he did. I don't know. I don't think he did, other
   than somebody had to separate them.
   
   Q Okay. Did you ever tell him not to review them or what to do with
   them?
   
   A The -- what to do with them? Yes. Okay. Send them up to us.
   
   Q Okay. Aside from sending them up to you, did you ever tell him
   whether or not he could look at them or if he should look at them or
   not?
   
   A I don't recall having that discussion. Craig had plenty to do. Okay?
   
   I mean, it would be -- it would be beyond my wildest imagination if he
   thought that he should look at presidential appointee IRSs. To my
   knowledge, he did not.
   
   Q But I am asking you a different question. Did you ever instruct him
   one way or the other?
   
   A Did not feel the need to is a better way to answer your question.
   
   Q Okay. Aside from those IRS forms, did any of the paperwork or any of
   the background checks of these presidential appointees go through Mr.
   Livingstone's office?
   
   A I don't think so. I don't remember precisely. I don't think so. I
   think I can say, to the best of my knowledge, that only the IRS stuff
   came over, simply as a matter of convenience.
   
   Q And then switching over to the White House employees who were -- or
   Executive Office of the President employees who were having background
   checks done, can you describe what paper in that area went through Mr.
   Livingstone's office?
   
   A Almost all of it, if not all of it, with regard to those people.
   
   Q And did Mr. Livingstone review all of those backgrounds?
   
   A As far as I know, he did, yes.
   
   Q And could you describe what guidance you provided to him on
   reviewing those backgrounds?
   
   A The guidance that I previously spoke about. I mean, he reviewed the
   standards and procedures, just as I did, to understand how the process
   was supposed to work and what standards to apply in adjudicating
   backgrounds.
   
   Q Okay. Could you briefly describe those standards?
   
   A It's very hard to describe them, other than in terms of you would
   look for, you know, obvious criminal behavior. You would look for
   conduct which would indicate a possible threat to security. You look
   for evidence of general character or lack thereof. You look for
   weaknesses in character illustrated by, you know, any number of
   things. And you just try to get a feel for the individual as shown by
   these backgrounds.
   
   Q And you were confident with Craig Livingstone's ability to review
   these matters?
   
   A Yes, I was.
   
   Q Okay. And could you describe how Craig would have -- what he would
   do in reviewing these files, how he would pass them on to you?
   
   A Those files did not come to me unless there was a problem that he
   felt like he needed to discuss with me.
   
   Q All right. So Craig Livingstone was adjudicating the files
   completely?
   
   A No. If he felt like he had a problem that needed to come to my
   attention, in other words, if there was a substantive problem in
   someone's background, he would usually bring those to me and say: I
   think this is a problem; do you agree?
   
   Okay? But was he adjudicating backgrounds, yes, that was his job.
   
   Q Okay. And so if Mr. Livingstone reviewed a file and decided there
   was nothing wrong with it, you would never see it?
   
   A That's right.
   
   Q Did Mr. Livingstone --
   
   A As you know, there are hundreds and hundreds of these things.
   
   Q I understand.
   
   A Hundreds and hundreds.
   
   Q Did you ever meet with the individual who had worked or any
   individual who had worked in this position at the White House prior to
   -- an attorney who worked in this prior?
   
   A Any attorney?
   
   Q Yes. Any White House Counsel who had overseen this process in the
   past.
   
   A Not to my knowledge. I mean, I can't -- I don't know, for example,
   who in Boyden Gray's office had this responsibility. I don't know. I
   may have run into him, but I don't know.
   
   Q I am just wondering if you ever sought out anybody for their
   assistance or guidance on these matters?
   
   A Other than Ms. Dannenhauer and her previous staff, no.
   
   Q Can you describe approximately how much of your time was spent on
   handling these background investigations in presidential appointee
   matters?
   
   A Which one are we talking about?
   
   Q Well, why don't we -- the two combined, what percent of your time
   was spent on that and then if you can separate out the two.
   
   A 120 percent on the two combined. 100 percent over here, 20 percent
   over here.
   
   Q 100 percent on the presidential appointees and 20 percent on the
   backgrounds?
   
   A Uh-huh.
   
   Q So would it be fair to say that Mr. Livingstone was doing the lion's
   share of the adjudicating of the files then?
   
   A Which files are we talking about?
   
   Q Of the White House Executive Office of the President files?
   
   A Yes. That was his job. And he would bring problems to me.
   
   Q What was the process by which he would bring problems to you?
   
   A He would call me on the phone or else stop by and say, I need to
   talk to you. I have got some problems we need to discuss. And I would
   say either come on in or I would make an appointment with him, or
   sometimes I would stop by his office and we would talk about whatever
   we needed to talk about.
   
   Q Okay. Would he provide you with the files that he had concerns
   about?
   
   A He would usually provide me just with the background, usually.
   Sometimes it would be a tax check, but rarely would it be somebody's
   SF-86. Rarely would it be any other information. I would say close to
   100 percent of the time the problems would show up in the background.
   
   Q Okay. Would he physically show you the documents and the paperwork
   on such an individual?
   
   A Well, he would show me the background. That's where most of the
   problems would be. And if he had a document that showed me another
   problem, he would show me that.
   
   Q And then how -- then you would resolve these matters at that point?
   
   A Yes.
   
   Q And who would -- did you discuss these kind of matters with anybody,
   any of your superiors?
   
   A Every once in a while something would rise to the level that I would
   go discuss it with Bernie Nussbaum or whoever my boss was at the time.
   
   Q So it would be Bernie Nussbaum or whoever was White House Counsel at
   the time?
   
   A Sometimes it would be Mr. Foster or the Deputy White House Counsel.
   
   Q All right. Would you ever discuss -- besides the Deputy Counsel or
   the White House Counsel, did you ever discuss this with anybody else
   at the White House?
   
   A Well, all right. Who are we talking about? Are we talking about
   presidential appointees or are we talking about White House --
   
   Q We are talking about the matters that Mr. Livingstone would bring to
   your attention, which would, I assume, be the White House employees?
   
   A Every once in awhile I would be directed to go and talk to whoever
   was going to use that person. Just for example, picking out of the
   air, if someone was going to go to the Office of Public Liaison, okay,
   and there was a matter in that person's background that I thought
   might be problematical and whatever basis it might be, I would usually
   go up the chain of command inside the Counsel's Office and sometimes
   the decision would be made, go and advise this person's prospective
   superior that this situation exists and let them make the call.
   
   Q Were these matters ever discussed with Mr. McLarty, to your
   knowledge?
   
   A I cannot recall ever discussing a background with Mr. McLarty.
   Whether they -- any matters got to him through another way, I don't
   know.
   
   Q Do you know if the First Lady was ever involved with any of these
   problem matters?
   
   A Okay. Well, look --
   
   Q Why don't we -- we are dealing with not the presidential appointees,
   but the --
   
   A Okay, Barbara, you have got to do this because the answer that I
   just gave you is not true with regard to presidential appointees.
   
   Q Okay. Let's put presidential appointees aside for now.
   
   A Okay. I don't recall ever discussing a problem in a background
   directly with Mack McLarty.
   
   Q Okay. Or the First Lady?
   
   A No.
   
   Q Okay. Did the First Lady ever involve herself in any matters dealing
   with background investigations or clearances?
   
   A Not to my knowledge.
   
   Q Are you aware of any problems that were ever raised by the President
   or the First Lady with any of the residence staff?
   
   A No. I am unaware of any problems that were raised, although I have
   read press reports, of course.
   
   Q Okay. And are you aware of Craig Livingstone ever requesting a
   background investigation of a residence staffer out of the ordinary
   course of business?
   
   A I am unaware of any such activity. I don't believe it occurred.
   
   Q Okay. So you have no knowledge of any such request of Mr.
   Livingstone?
   
   A Huh-uh.
   
   Q And you have no knowledge of Mr. Livingstone taking it upon himself
   in any way to do that?
   
   A No. As I say, I don't believe it happened.
   
   Q Were you aware of Craig Livingstone having interns and volunteers
   working in his office?
   
   A Yes.
   
   Q Did you ever discuss this with him?
   
   A Sure. We were -- he in particular was swamped. He had both detailees
   and interns and volunteers working there. I am not sure he had
   volunteers there. I think he mostly had interns.
   
   Q Okay. And did you approve him having interns in the office?
   
   A Yes.
   
   Q Okay. Could you describe any discussions you had with him about
   these interns?
   
   A I made sure that he knew that the interns could not see information
   which would be considered confidential and whatnot; that they could
   help process paperwork.
   
   Q Okay. Do you know if the interns were provided with any memos or
   documents to that effect?
   
   A I can't answer that. I presume Craig did so, but he may have advised
   them verbally of that. I just don't know.
   
   Q Do you know if any of the interns had any security clearances?
   
   A If they had access to the White House, they did.
   
   Q The interns would?
   
   A If they had a White House pass, if they had access to the White
   House, they had had a level of security clearance, yes.
   
   Q Were you aware of the interns working in the vault that was in Craig
   Livingstone's office?
   
   A I don't believe they did, but I also don't know. As I say, I was not
   in Craig's office on a daily basis.
   
   Q Okay. How often were you in his office?
   
   A Sporadically.
   
   Q All right. Can you describe more specifically? Weekly?
   
   A I absolutely cannot. I mean, it was sporadic. It was on an as-needed
   basis. You know, I am sure there were weeks that went by that I didn't
   go in at all and then I may come in two or three times in a week.
   
   Q Do you recall in what type of -- for what type of reasons you would
   go to Mr. Livingstone's office?
   
   A Ninety-nine percent of the time it would be to discuss a problem
   that he might be having with a prospective White House employee or a
   current White House employee. It would be sometimes go to retrieve
   information. It just could be anything under the sun.
   
   Q Were you aware of Mr. Livingstone ever having any problems with any
   interns at the White House?
   
   A You would have to put some content in the word "problems." I don't
   recall him having any problems with interns but that's not to say it
   didn't happen.
   
   Q Did he ever raise with you any problems that he had with the
   interns?
   
   A I don't recall him doing so. He may have. I simply do not recall. I
   don't recall anything substantive. Again, when you say this, I'm
   talking about interns that worked for Craig.
   
   Q Yes, I understand.
   
   Okay. Did there come a time when Craig talked to you about hiring
   Anthony Marceca to work at the White House?
   
   A Yes.
   
   Q All right. And can you describe how that came about?
   
   A Craig needed help. He was swamped. There was a ton of work to be
   done. He came and he said that he had worked with Marceca before,
   thought he was a good hand and that he had talked with Marceca, and
   Marceca was interested in coming to work at the White House with Craig
   and he wanted to do this.
   
   Q Okay. And what did you say?
   
   A I said, tell me about him. So he did. And then I said, well, if you
   want to use him, we will try and get him.
   
   Q All right. Did you get any information on Mr. Marceca independently
   of Craig's recommendation?
   
   A Did not.
   
   Q Okay. Did you --
   
   A Well, later on, you know, his background came in the normal course.
   
   Q Did you interview Mr. Marceca?
   
   A The short answer would be, I don't know if you would call it a
   normal interview, but did I talk to Tony, yes, I did.
   
   Q And could you describe that contact?
   
   A I had a practice of trying to meet all of the detailees that were
   going to work in the White House Security Office -- White House office
   -- the Office of White House Personnel Security. Craig and I thought
   it was helpful just to eyeball them, see who they were, make a little
   speech about how they are working with sensitive information and they
   needed to be careful what they did with it, how they did with it and
   like that.
   
   And so, you know, Craig brought Tony by one day and I visited with
   him. There was nothing out of the ordinary about that talk.
   
   Q How many detailees were there in the Office of Personnel Security?
   
   A I think most of the time there were at least two, maybe three, if I
   remember correctly. Maybe sometimes just one.
   
   Q And why were there detailees as opposed to having permanent hires in
   the office?
   
   A They were just -- under the budgets we were operating under, we had
   a need for detailees. We were operating with detailees in the
   Counsel's Office as well.
   
   Q Okay. And so this was because of the 25 percent personnel cuts you
   were utilizing detailees as opposed to regular employees?
   
   A No. As I understand it, it had been a practice in all
   administrations to use detailees. I mean, I know from detailees that
   were on hand when we got there that the Bush administration had used
   detailees as well.
   
   Q In the Personnel Security Office?
   
   A I don't know the answer to that, but they had used them in the
   Counsel's Office, for example.
   
   Q Do you know any of the other detailees who were in the Personnel
   Security Office?
   
   A I met them. I can't remember their names right now. If you refresh
   my memory in some form or fashion, I could probably identify them. But
   you know they rotated in and out.
   
   Q No, I didn't know.
   
   A Oh, yes, you do. They rotate in and out, detailees come over --
   
   Q I didn't know that there were other detailees in the Personnel
   Security Office. Do you have any other information to that effect?
   
   A As far as I know, there were. Okay? But they rotate in and out. They
   serve usually a term of months.
   
   Q Okay. And were these nonreimbursable detailees, usually, that the
   White House didn't have to pay for them?
   
   A I don't know if you could say the word "usually," but in some cases
   they were nonreimbursable, yes.
   
   Q Okay. Do you know what Mr. Marceca was hired to do in the Office of
   Personnel Security?
   
   A Well, he was hired to help, first and foremost. Craig thought he
   would be particularly helpful with regard to the military personnel,
   of which there are a ton that have access to the White House complex.
   
   Q And do you know who Mr. Marceca was to report to?
   
   A When?
   
   Q While he was working at the White House?
   
   A Craig Livingstone.
   
   Q Was Craig Livingstone his supervisor?
   
   A Yes.
   
   Q What had Craig told you about anything he -- how long he had known
   Mr. Marceca or anything about his personal relationship with Mr.
   Marceca?
   
   A I can't recall the specifics of it, but he said he had known Tony,
   that he had worked with Tony. I think he had mentioned that he had
   worked with Tony some in the Inauguration; mentioned that he was a
   criminal investigator for the Army. Again, that's the reason that he
   thought he would be of use with regard to security matters.
   
   You know, that's basically it. I mean, he just said that he had worked
   with him before and had a high opinion of him. You can boil it all
   down to that. And that Tony wanted to come.
   
   Q Okay. Were you aware that Mr. Marceca had a political background
   also?
   
   A Other than the fact I remember Craig said that he had helped some in
   an Inauguration event. But the answer is, no, I don't think I knew at
   the time that he -- I think I reviewed a resume which said that he had
   Hill experience, if I remember correctly. He had worked for some
   subcommittee. Okay? What's the definition of "political"?
   
   Q Did you have any knowledge of him working on campaigns?
   
   A I don't think so at the time.
   
   Q And you said Mr. Marceca did provide you with a resume?
   
   A I think Craig did. I don't remember Tony handing me a resume. I
   think Craig did.
   
   Q I am showing the witness a letter which is CGE 43823. It's an April
   5th, 1993 letter to Secretary of Defense Les Aspin from Mr. Kennedy.
   
   Directing your attention to the second paragraph of the letter, second
   sentence in that paragraph, it says: "I have learned of Agent
   Marceca's unique investigative abilities and background and would
   greatly appreciate his full-time assistance here."
   
   A Uh-huh.
   
   Q Do you know where you had learned about his abilities and
   background?
   
   A It would have come from Craig or the resume.
   
   Ms. Comstock. I will make this Exhibit 1.
   
   [Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 1
   
   was marked for identification.]
   
   BY MS. COMSTOCK:
   
   Q Did you consult with anyone else at the White House about detailing
   Mr. Marceca?
   
   A I do not recall doing so, no.
   
   Q Do you recall how you learned that Secretary Aspin was the
   individual to write to in this matter?
   
   A No, I don't recall the details of -- other than this was the
   procedure that you had to go through to get somebody detailed from a
   military background. I don't remember who told me that or what the
   story was, but this is what you had to do.
   
   Q Do you know if someone drafted this letter for you?
   
   A Either I wrote it or I asked Craig to write it for me. I can't
   remember.
   
   Q Okay. Did you have a secretary at the time?
   
   A I did not.
   
   Q All right. Did you usually type your own work?
   
   A I did.
   
   Q Do you know if Craig usually typed his own letters?
   
   A I can't answer that. I don't know quite how Craig did his document
   crunching. I just don't know.
   
   Q This is CGE 43821, which is an April 6th letter from David Allen to
   Mr. Kennedy. Basically, it's a recommendation letter for Mr. Marceca.
   Did you have an understanding -- using this letter to refresh your
   recollection, did you have an understanding of Mr. Marceca's level of
   ability given this recommendation?
   
   A Did I have an understanding?
   
   Q Yes.
   
   A I don't understand your question.
   
   Q I am just wondering, did you consider him a low-level clerk, for
   example?
   
   A Well, I don't know -- I don't know. When? I mean, are we talking
   about the work that he did where he was?
   
   Q I am talking about who you were under -- for the position you were
   hiring him for, did you have an understanding of what his abilities
   were, whether they were of a low-, medium- or high-level of ability in
   this area?
   
   A I'm -- I must -- my brain must not be working today. I am sorry. I
   don't understand what you are asking. Are you asking -- look, at this
   point in time, if this is what you are asking, he is not here yet.
   
   Q Okay. Well, in seeking somebody to assist Mr. Livingstone, were you
   seeking a low-level person who had no knowledge of how to do this job
   or were you seeking someone who had some knowledge and ability in this
   area?
   
   A I was responding to Craig's request. I didn't know Tony Marceca from
   Adam. Okay? Period.
   
   I mean, I had -- until Craig said, I need help -- which I knew -- and
   I have someone in mind, I had never heard of this individual. Okay?
   
   Craig, who I had confidence in, comes and says, I think this guy is a
   good hand. I don't know how to answer it any better than that.
   
   Q Did you want Craig to find someone who had some experience or
   abilities in the area that he was going to be assisting Mr.
   Livingstone in?
   
   A Well, I would -- certainly, I would hope that Craig would get good
   help. I would certainly hope that. I mean, it would be dumb for Craig
   not to want to get good help.
   
   Ms. Comstock. This is CGE -- I will make this April 6th letter Exhibit
   2. That's CGE 43821.
   
   [Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 2
   
   was marked for identification.]
   
   BY MS. COMSTOCK:
   
   Q This is an April 13th letter, again, to Secretary of Defense Les
   Aspin from William Kennedy and the subject is requesting Mr. Marceca
   as a detailee. It is CC'd to David Allen and Commander Peter Berry.
   That's CGE 43816.
   
   This letter, directing your attention to the second paragraph, you had
   requested that the detailee, Mr. Marceca, begin on April 12th, 1993,
   for 6 months. Do you have --
   
   Mr. Coffield. It's the same letter as Exhibit 1.
   
   Ms. Comstock. But it is a different date.
   
   Mr. Coffield. Yes.
   
   BY MS. COMSTOCK:
   
   Q Do you have any knowledge as to why Mr. Marceca was not detailed in
   April of 1993?
   
   A No. I mean, it had something to do -- I just don't remember the
   details. It had something to do with where he was employed. I mean,
   either they couldn't free him up or they didn't want to or we couldn't
   break the bureaucratic logjam or something. I don't remember the
   details.
   
   Q Okay. Were you aware at that time in April of '93 or thereabouts of
   any problems in Mr. Marceca's background that would -- that anybody
   flagged for you as to why he shouldn't be coming to the White House to
   work in this position?
   
   A No.
   
   Ms. Comstock. I will make this April 13th letter Exhibit 3.
   
   [Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 3
   
   was marked for identification.]
   
   BY MS. COMSTOCK:
   
   Q CGE 43814, it's a June 22nd, 1993 letter to Colonel Michael
   Sherfield, Executive Secretary to the Secretary of Defense, from Mr.
   Kennedy, again, and it's a request for Mr. Marceca to be detailed to
   the White House.
   
   Directing your attention to the first paragraph, it says: "Craig
   Livingstone has requested that Special Agent Marceca be detailed to
   the White House for 6 months at the executive level."
   
   Do you have any idea approximately what pay level Mr. Marceca was
   going to be detailed to the White House at?
   
   A No.
   
   Q Do you have any recollection of what Mr. Livingstone was being paid
   at the time?
   
   A I don't remember precisely. I mean, I think it was -- I just don't
   remember. I think it was like $50,000 maybe. But that's a guess on my
   part. You would have to refer to the personnel records.
   
   Q And do you have any recollection of his -- the assistants he had in
   his office, what their pay level was?
   
   A Again, these are guesses, which I know I'm not supposed to do, but
   the short answer is, I think they were in the mid-20s, but I don't
   know. I just don't remember.
   
   Q Okay. Again, do you recall if you typed up this letter or put the
   information in this letter?
   
   A Either Craig did it for me or I did it. And it's entirely possible
   that Craig brought me a draft which I marked up, you know, redid. I
   just -- I'm sorry. I don't recall exactly how that happened.
   
   Q All right. Outside of talking to Craig, had you obtained any -- and
   meeting Mr. Marceca, had you obtained any other information about Mr.
   Marceca prior to requesting him to be detailed to the White House?
   
   A No.
   
   Q Do you recall any discussions during this time frame in the
   spring/summer of 1993, regarding getting Mr. Marceca to come over to
   the White House?
   
   A The time frame again?
   
   Q The spring and summer of 1993. And if it assists, he did not get to
   the White House apparently until August 18th, 1993.
   
   A As I said, there were summaries and the details of which I cannot
   recall, that he couldn't be detailed immediately. And I don't remember
   what they were. Craig continued to work at it, you know. He still
   thought -- had a high opinion of Tony, and this subsequent letter is,
   you know, another attempt to break whatever the bureaucratic rules
   there were to get Mr. Marceca detailed over.
   
   Ms. Comstock. I will make that June 22nd letter Exhibit 4.
   
   [Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 4
   
   was marked for identification.]
   
   BY MS. COMSTOCK:
   
   Q This is CGE 43812, an August 5th letter for associate -- for
   Associate Counsel to the President, which I believe was probably
   directed to you, regarding your request for the detail of Special
   Agent Marceca. This memo says: Your June 22nd request for Mr. Marceca
   on a 6-month nonreimbursable basis was approved.
   
   Do you recall having any conversations with anybody around this time
   frame?
   
   A I don't. I know at some point somewhere along this odyssey of
   getting him detailed, I think I spoke with somebody in the chain of
   command for Tony, and I can't remember who. I can't remember the
   substance of the conversation other than it was -- whatever was
   holding him up in terms of a detail, it had been resolved. I can't
   remember anything more than that. So we fired a second letter off.
   
   Ms. Comstock. Okay. When Mr. Marceca arrived at the -- I will make
   this August 5th memo Exhibit 5.
   
   [Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 5
   
   was marked for identification.]
   
   BY MS. COMSTOCK:
   
   Q This is CGE 43810. Could you describe -- this is a form entitled:
   "White House Office, Personnel From Other Agencies." It's dated
   February 28th, 1994. The signature of the White House approving
   official is Mr. Kennedy. At the top of it, it says: "This is to
   request that the following individual perform duties at the EOP
   complex." And the name of the person requested is Anthony Marceca.
   
   A Uh-huh.
   
   Q Was this a form to extend Mr. Marceca's detail at the White House?
   
   A This is a form to commence the seeking of him as a detailee.
   
   Q This was in 1994.
   
   A I understand, but that's -- I mean, either this paperwork wasn't
   filed when it was supposed to -- actually, what this is -- you have it
   exactly right and I am wrong, and for that I apologize. This is a form
   that has to do with extending him as a detailee, I believe. And it's
   also, if you noticed, it says, start reimbursement. If he had been
   extended as a detailee, the White House would have had to make him a
   reimbursable detailee beyond his 6 months, if I remember the way the
   system worked.
   
   Q Okay. So this form represents an attempt by the White House to keep
   Mr. Marceca at the White House beyond the 6-month detailee position?
   
   A That's what it appears to be, yes.
   
   Q Do you recall the circumstances surrounding trying to get that
   extension?
   
   A I think -- I know Craig wanted to keep Tony Marceca there. You know,
   I don't know whose handwriting this is, but somebody, either Craig or
   somebody, would have brought me this form, which I signed. I know
   Craig wanted to keep him there.
   
   Q Okay. Now, we have been informed by the White House that he did
   leave sometime in February of '94. Do you know why he was not retained
   at the White House?
   
   A Well, I don't remember the timing involved. Okay? I simply do not
   know exactly when things took place. But if I remember correctly,
   there were two things that sort of impacted on this. One of which is
   that the White House, I don't believe, wanted to pick up paying for
   him. That's number one.
   
   Number two, Tony's background had come in and there were some problems
   revealed with it that made me think it might be better if he kind of
   went back to where he was.
   
   Q Okay. So his background had not come in prior to him coming to the
   White House in August of 1993?
   
   A That's the way it always worked.
   
   Q Had any paperwork on his background been transferred to the White
   House prior to his coming to the White House in August of 1993?
   
   A I can't answer that. I don't know. Okay? I don't know. I don't know
   if -- you know, what the status of paperwork was on him. The
   background I am referring to is the background that was performed on
   him so that he could have continued access at the White House.
   
   Q Okay. And you recall learning of -- we are not going to go into
   these problems. I understand the situation there. But you did not
   learn of any problems in Mr. Marceca's background until sometime in
   1994?
   
   A Again, don't hold me to the time. I simply don't recall. I don't --
   if I remember correctly, that background took a while to come in. I
   don't know why. And I don't know the timing. I simply don't know.
   Okay?
   
   When it did come in, there were some problems, which I can't talk
   about, and the detail kind of ran its course. If I remember correctly,
   we encountered resistance, and the two things together, we decided it
   was best for him not to stay on.
   
   Q Can you describe what kind of resistance you encountered and where
   that came from?
   
   A I am talking about the reimbursement.
   
   Q Now, was that the only resistance that prevented him from staying on
   then as opposed to the background problem?
   
   A Well, I mean, it's sort of a seamless web. I mean, you know, it's
   kind of hard to -- I don't remember the specifics of it. I don't
   remember the timing involved. This form indicates it was somewhere
   around this period of time, but the bottom line is, is that you take
   everything in conjunction and it just made sense to return him to
   where -- back to the Army.
   
   Q Now, do you recall whether or not you learned about these problems
   in his background before or after February 28th, 1994, which is the
   date that this form is indicating you had signed off on him requesting
   he stay on as a detailee?
   
   A I am sorry. I cannot help you with the times. In other words, I
   don't know when his FBI background came in. I am sorry. I cannot
   remember.
   
   The problems in his background were not problems that would have led
   to a termination sort of on the spot. They were not those type
   problems, period. But when it came time for his 6 months to be up,
   that, in conjunction with what I was referring to, if I remember
   correctly, the White House didn't want to pick up paying for him, for
   whatever reasons. He just went back.
   
   Q Okay. So you can't separate out which was in terms of -- when you
   signed this form, you don't know whether or not you knew about the
   problems in his background?
   
   A I am sorry. I probably did. Okay? But I absolutely don't want to be
   held to that because I simply can't recall. But I probably had the
   background in my possession at that point in time, probably.
   
   Ms. Comstock. Okay. We are making CGE 43810, that extension of Mr.
   Marceca's detail, I guess a request form, has been made Exhibit 6.
   
   [Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 6
   
   was marked for identification.]
   
   BY MS. COMSTOCK:
   
   Q During the 6 months while Mr. Marceca was at the White House, were
   you aware of what he was working on?
   
   A With particularity, no.
   
   Q Okay. In a general sense?
   
   A He was helping Craig, helping that office.
   
   Q Okay. Did Craig report to you at all on what Mr. Marceca was working
   on?
   
   A I do not recall him doing so. I don't believe that he did.
   
   Q Do you know if there were any other Army people detailed to Craig's
   office?
   
   A There may have been. I am sorry. I simply don't recall.
   
   Q Did there come a time when you learned that Mr. Marceca was working
   on something called the Update Project?
   
   A Well, I mean, obviously I have heard about it now from press
   reports. I would not have been surprised in the least if Craig had put
   him to work on that. As I have testified earlier, just a minute ago, I
   don't recall Craig talking to me with specificity about what Tony was
   doing for him.
   
   Q Did you have any knowledge about the need to obtain the previous FBI
   reports of holdover employees?
   
   A Yes.
   
   Q Could you describe your knowledge of what you needed to do in that
   area?
   
   A Well, we had learned -- we collectively, Craig and I had learned,
   that the personnel files of everybody in the Bush administration were
   gone. They were considered presidential records and they had -- they
   were gone. And so people that were employed by the Bush White House,
   is a better way to say it, is in the Executive Office of the
   President, who had access to the White House, there were hundreds and
   hundreds of them that had continued access but no files. So the files
   had to be reconstructed.
   
   Q Okay. What was your understanding of what needed to be done in that
   area?
   
   A Unfortunately, it's just what I said. The files needed to be
   reconstructed. We had to get background information on them, you know,
   through SF-86; tax checks were run on them and then depending on the
   cycles involved, we had to get copies of their FBI backgrounds.
   
   Q And did you instruct Craig Livingstone to get that done?
   
   A Uh-huh. I mean, it was part of his job.
   
   Q And do you know how he went about doing that job?
   
   A With specificity, no.
   
   Q Do you have a general idea of what he did in that job?
   
   A Just what I told you.
   
   Q Did you know that Mr. Marceca was working on that matter?
   
   A Not -- it wouldn't surprise me. I do not recall Craig specifically
   saying, I have got Tony doing X, Y and Z. But I am sure there were
   other people working on that project as well.
   
   Q Did Mr. Livingstone ever write memos or updates to you on work that
   was being done in his office?
   
   A From time to time, he did.
   
   Q Okay. Can you describe if he ever wrote any memos on the Update
   Project and what was being done on the Update Project?
   
   A I don't recall any such memos. I mean, most of my communication was
   verbal.
   
   Q What was your understanding of the extent of holdover employees at
   the White House?
   
   A What do you mean by extent?
   
   Q Who was held over at the White House?
   
   A Hundreds of people.
   
   Q Okay. And what type of employees were those?
   
   A All sorts, I mean from A to Z.
   
   Q Groundskeepers?
   
   A From groundskeepers to --
   
   Q GSA?
   
   A -- to telephone operators, to people that worked in the Situation
   Room, to telegraph operators. You name it, they were there.
   
   Q Okay. Do you know if any people in the Communications Office were
   holdovers?
   
   A I presume they were, but I don't know.
   
   Q Okay. Dee Dee Myers' office, I am talking about.
   
   A Were there holdovers in Dee Dee Myers' office.
   
   Q Yes.
   
   A I don't know. I can't answer that with specificity.
   
   Q Do you have a general understanding of, say, George Stephanopolous
   and Dee Dee Myers kept on any of Marlin Fitzwater's staff?
   
   A I am not splitting hairs with you but when you get into questions
   when we talk about staff, for example, I don't believe that they did,
   particularly in sort of a decision-making capability. But whether or
   not there was in the Communications Office, for example, a specified
   telephone operator that held over, I don't know. I can't answer that.
   
   Q Okay. But aside from maybe a few low-level staff, did you have any
   -- a general understanding of whether or not people, say, in the
   Communications Office were new employees or holdover employees?
   
   A For the most part, people that worked in the West Wing would be new
   employees.
   
   Q So, say, in the policy offices, West Wing offices, Chief of Staff's
   office, most of those people would be new employees?
   
   A Uh-huh.
   
   Q Mr. McLarty didn't hold over any of the Chief of Staff's staff from
   --
   
   A With the same caveat I just gave you.
   
   Q With a secretary or two?
   
   A With the same caveat I just gave you, most of the people would be
   new hires.
   
   Q Okay.
   
   A Now, if you go to the OEOB, that's not going to be a true statement.
   But there you have it.
   
   Q Okay. Were you aware of the First Lady's Office retaining any of
   Mrs. Bush's employees?
   
   A Well, I mean, were there ushers that carried over? You bet. Were
   there --
   
   Q I am talking about the First Lady's personal office.
   
   A No, I don't believe anybody did.
   
   Q Were you ever given any information about what type of lists anyone
   was supposed to work from to obtain information for passes?
   
   A Well, there were, you know, a number of lists, you know, mostly --
   they were compiled from the Secret Service and -- there were lists. I
   don't know how to answer it any better than that.
   
   Q What is your knowledge of these lists?
   
   A Well, I mean, there's -- there's -- you know, there's a list of
   people that have passes. There's a list of people that have temporary
   passes. There's a list of people that have access, list of people who
   don't have access. I mean, it just goes on, and on, and on and on.
   
   Q Do you have any knowledge as to what lists that Craig Livingstone
   was working off of in working on this Update Project?
   
   A No.
   
   Q Just so we can be clear, you did have a general understanding that
   Craig was trying to obtain these files of the holdover employees?
   
   A He had to.
   
   Q Okay. And you had instructed him to do so?
   
   A The short answer is, yes. But that was his job. That's what he was
   there for. And it was -- it had to be done.
   
   Q Did you ever talk to Mr. Bourke at the FBI about obtaining these
   files, anything Craig was working on in relation to this?
   
   A What are we talking about? Craig's stuff?
   
   Q Yes.
   
   A Yes. I talked to Mr. Bourke almost every day. Okay?
   
   Most of what I talked to Mr. Bourke about was what I was doing, which
   is presidential appointees, PASs and PAs and whatnot. But when, for
   example, when I first got there, I met with Mr. Bourke and some of his
   staff and they talked about, and we talked about, how the process
   worked; what he expected from us, what I expected from him; how it was
   supposed to work. Mr. Bourke was an excellent public servant. He was
   very helpful and we had a good working relationship.
   
   Most, as I said, of what I talked to him about concerned presidential
   appointees and PASs, but it also -- we also interfaced from time to
   time with regard to people who had access to the White House; rarely
   but some.
   
   Q Okay. At or around late 1993, November/December time frame, did Mr.
   Bourke or anybody from the FBI ever tell you about a large request for
   -- from the White House Personnel Security Office for files of
   previous Bush or Reagan employees?
   
   A No, did not.
   
   Q Did anybody ever mention anything about there had been an unusually
   large volume of requests of previous reports from the FBI?
   
   A Did not.
   
   Q Did Craig Livingstone ever tell you anything about files being
   obtained of Reagan and Bush officials from the FBI?
   
   A Well, I mean, if you characterize it in terms of doing what we were
   doing, I mean, I talked to Craig about that. I mean, that's -- we had
   to replace these files. We had to rebuild the personnel files on
   people who had continued access to the White House.
   
   Did he -- I mean, did I know that files of inactive people were being
   requested? I did not. Did he ever discuss that with me? He did not.
   
   Ms. Comstock. I am showing the witness CGE 43641 through 42, which is
   a memo from the White House to the FBI liaison from Bernie Nussbaum.
   The subject is FBI investigations. It's dated December 20th, 1993, and
   the subject's name is Billy Ray Dale and the request was for a copy of
   previous reports. It says, the person named above is being considered
   for access.
   
   BY MS. COMSTOCK:
   
   Q Have you ever seen this request form before?
   
   A When these press reports hit, Bernie Nussbaum faxed me a copy of
   that. And the answer is, until he did that, I had never seen this
   before.
   
   Q Did Mr. Nussbaum talk to you about this form and how it came to be
   -- previous reports came to be requested?
   
   A Huh-uh. He didn't know anything.
   
   Q Can you just describe how he came to fax this to you?
   
   A When the first press reports hit, Bernie called me and asked me,
   basically, one question, which was --
   
   Mr. Stroman. Excuse me just one second, Ms. Comstock.
   
   About what time frame is this, approximately, just approximately?
   
   The Witness. Whenever the first press reports were on this request,
   which is the Billy Dale request.
   
   Mr. Stroman. Right.
   
   The Witness. Whenever they first occurred.
   
   BY MS. COMSTOCK:
   
   Q You mean in the past several weeks?
   
   A Yes, within the past week or so.
   
   Mr. Stroman. All right.
   
   The Witness. I mean, within 2 weeks, 3 weeks, whatever. And he simply
   said, I am being asked questions about this. What do you know about
   it?
   
   I said, I don't know anything about it.
   
   And he said, did we ever discuss this?
   
   I said, no.
   
   He said, I have got this form.
   
   I said, Bernie, what in the world are you talking about?
   
   He said, I am going to fax it to you, and he did.
   
   Okay? And that was the substance of our conversation. And he was
   wanting to put a statement out, which he subsequently did.
   
   BY MS. COMSTOCK:
   
   Q Okay. So prior to these press reports in the past month or so, you
   had no knowledge that Mr. Dale's file had been requested?
   
   A That's correct.
   
   Q All right. And prior to the press reports and, I guess, the more
   recent reports in the past week or so that there were
   400-and-apparently-climbing number of files that have been obtained
   from the FBI of people who were not supposed -- the office -- the
   White House was not supposed to be getting their files, did you have
   any knowledge of those 400-plus files being obtained?
   
   A I did not.
   
   Q Okay. Have you discussed with anyone at the White House since then
   how this came about?
   
   A The only discussions I have had with the White House have been they
   called and asked -- you know, they called my counsel and asked if I
   would put a statement out, which I did.
   
   Ms. Comstock. I will make this, Mr. Dale's form to the FBI, I will
   make that Exhibit 7, CGE 43641.
   
   [Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 7
   
   was marked for identification.]
   
   BY MS. COMSTOCK:
   
   Q Okay. This is a June 14th, 1996 statement of William Kennedy. Is
   that the statement you were just referring to, Mr. Kennedy?
   
   A Yes.
   
   Q Okay. And do you recall who called you from the Counsel's Office?
   
   A Sally Paxton.
   
   Q Okay. What did Ms. Paxton ask you?
   
   A If I would put a statement out.
   
   Q Okay. And did you tell her what the statement would say?
   
   A Basically, yes.
   
   Q Did Ms. Paxton give you any information about any knowledge she had
   about how these files had been obtained?
   
   A She did not.
   
   Ms. Comstock. I will make the statement Exhibit 8. It doesn't have a
   Bates stamp number, but it's a June 14th, 1996 statement of Mr.
   Kennedy.
   
   [Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 8
   
   was marked for identification.]
   
   Mr. Stroman. June 14th?
   
   Ms. Comstock. June 14th, 1996, which reads: "During my tenure as
   Associate Counsel for the President, I can state unequivocally that I
   never obtained, never directed anyone else to obtain, never
   disseminated or asked anyone else to disseminate any FBI background
   information for any person for any improper purpose whatsoever.
   Further, I have no knowledge of any other person associated with the
   White House of engaging in any improper use of information from FBI
   reports."
   
   That's the end of the statement.
   
   BY MS. COMSTOCK:
   
   Q Could you define what you mean by "improper purpose" --
   
   A Misuse.
   
   Q -- in that statement?
   
   A Misuse.
   
   Q Okay. Or improper use of information?
   
   A Misuse.
   
   Q Did anyone -- while you were at the White House, did anyone ever
   tell you anything about Craig Livingstone referencing information that
   was in their background files in a way that they thought might not be
   appropriate?
   
   A No. I don't recall anyone doing so, huh-uh.
   
   Q Were you ever aware of him making comments to individuals, I guess
   maybe in -- not just to the individual directly involved but in the
   company of numerous individuals, making comments about somebody's
   background in the company of others?
   
   A No, I don't think Craig ever did that. I have no knowledge of it. I
   don't think he did that.
   
   Q This is a Time Magazine article from yesterday, dated June 24th,
   1996. It is directing your attention to the second page.
   
   A I have never seen this before.
   
   Q Would you like an opportunity to look at it?
   
   A I am just telling you, you are handing me something I have never
   seen before.
   
   Q Sure. If you would like to take some time to look at it.
   
   A Do you want me to read the whole thing?
   
   Q Just whatever you would like to look at, Mr. Kennedy.
   
   A Rather than me take the time to read this entire article, what
   questions have you got?
   
   Q Okay. In this article, there are three former Clinton staff members
   who allegedly told Time Magazine that Mr. Livingstone was in the habit
   of, quote, "insinuating that he had read their security files." The
   message, they contend, was that Livingstone knew all about their
   peccadillos but their secrets were safe with him. Did you ever hear
   about anything like that?
   
   A Without having read the article, I am willing to bet you that those
   people's names are not in this article.
   
   Q No, they are not, you are correct. I am just asking you if you have
   ever heard anything like that from anybody at the White House?
   
   A No.
   
   Q Thank you.
   
   Did you ever discuss with Mr. Livingstone what the proper or improper
   use of FBI background information was?
   
   A The short answer is, yes. I mean, Craig knows, just as I know, that
   you cannot discuss people's backgrounds, except under the most limited
   of circumstances. You can't make improper use of them. And I don't
   believe he did.
   
   Q Okay. I think when we may have been previously discussing the
   background investigations that were done of the new staff at the White
   House, you said that Mr. Livingstone adjudicated and read through most
   of those files.
   
   A Uh-huh.
   
   Q Do you have any knowledge of whether or not Mr. Livingstone read
   through the files of the holdover people that were coming into his
   office?
   
   A As far as I know, he did. You say the holdover people?
   
   Q Yes.
   
   A In other words, people that had access to the White House that were
   there crossing over the administrations?
   
   Q Yes.
   
   A Yes, I would presume that he did.
   
   Q Okay. So in regard to these previous reports that Mr. Livingstone --
   that his office was seeking to -- for the replacement files, your
   understanding was that he would review those files also?
   
   A Yes. I mean, that's what he was supposed to do. That was the purpose
   in getting them.
   
   RPTS COLCHICO
   
   DCMN GALLACHER
   
   Q Okay. Now, you have testified that you did not know anything about
   these 400-plus files of former Reagan and Bush officials being
   obtained by the White House. Did you know anything about any files
   whatsoever being archived of hold -- of any type of holdover
   employees, regardless of who they were, during your tenure at the
   White House?
   
   A When you use the word "archive," what do you mean?
   
   Q Why don't I back up a little. Did you ever talk to Craig Livingstone
   about archiving any of the files that he had at the vault?
   
   A All right. When you talk about archiving, what are you talking
   about?
   
   Q Okay. Well, why don't you explain to me what your understanding is
   about the archiving of FBI background files.
   
   A Well, when you put them in the vault, they are archived. I don't
   know what you are driving at. I am sorry. I really don't.
   
   Q Okay. Do you know anything about any of -- any files ever being
   removed from the vault and being put elsewhere in any type of White
   House archives?
   
   A From press reports, I have learned that supposedly, and this is only
   from press reports, when Tony left, someone came, said, we don't need
   these and sent them to the archives. I don't know any more than that.
   Solely from press reports.
   
   Q Okay. And by "Tony," you are referring to Tony as Mr. Marceca?
   
   A Uh-huh.
   
   Q While Tony was at the White House, were you aware of any problems in
   his work while he was at the White House?
   
   A No.
   
   Q Okay. Mr. Livingstone never alerted you to any concerns or problems
   that he had with Tony?
   
   A I don't recall if he did, no.
   
   Q Did anybody else at the White House ever alert you to any concerns
   or problems that they had with Tony?
   
   A No. I don't recall that they did.
   
   Q Could you describe the process by which Mr. Livingstone, when he
   flagged the files for you, that he forwarded to you, how would -- I
   guess there have been reports, the derogatory information that would
   be in such files, could you describe how that was presented to you?
   
   A Ninety-nine times out of 100, he would put a Post-it by the section
   of the person's FBI background that he thought I should look at; that
   was problematical. In other words, he would say, here are problems,
   and he would put a tag by what he thought revealed that problem.
   
   Q And was it your understanding that he would do this also for any of
   the holdover files that there were problems for?
   
   A Well, any problem that he thought needed to -- or rose to the level
   of my attention, whether it was a new White House access or a
   holdover, he would handle it basically the same way.
   
   Ms. Comstock. Did you want to ask some questions? I am not finished
   but if you would like to ask some questions.
   
   EXAMINATION BY MR. STROMAN:
   
   Q My name is Ron Stroman. Hello, Mr. Kennedy. How are you today?
   
   A Fine, Ron. How are you? Every day is a holiday.
   
   Q I have just a couple of questions. The reconstruction of files, did
   you have any discussion with anyone in the Bush administration about
   the process for file reconstruction?
   
   A Jane Dannenhauer and Nancy Gemmell, who were employed in that
   position of the Office of White House Personnel Security, for the Bush
   administration.
   
   Q Do you remember what Jane Dannenhauer said to you or what the
   general thrust of the conversation was?
   
   A Well, they were very nice. They were very professional and they were
   very helpful. The purpose of talking to them was to reconstruct the
   procedures.
   
   Q Right.
   
   A You know, how did they do things; where were things -- I mean, it
   was as elemental as it could be. Where do these go? How did you all
   handle things?
   
   Q In those conversations with Jane Dannenhauer and Nancy Gemmell, was
   Craig Livingstone in those conversations?
   
   A Uh-huh.
   
   Q So the conversations with you, Craig, Jane and Nancy, was it several
   conversations?
   
   A It was a multiplicity of conversations, particularly when we first
   -- when I first got there. I mean, you know, something -- most of the
   time Craig would be there. You know, every once in awhile I would be
   there and he wouldn't, if he was off doing something, or vice versa.
   But it was trying to find out what was going on.
   
   Q Did you think you had a pretty good grasp of the way in which the
   Bush administration handled file reconstruction?
   
   A The short answer is, I think we ultimately got there. I mean, when
   we first got started, I would say, no, but I mean we finally got
   comfortable with sort of the procedures we should be following.
   
   Q And with regard to your role in reviewing -- well, let me just start
   with the process for requesting background information. Were you
   involved at all with the requests for background information?
   
   A Well, you have got to do -- you have to do the same thing that I did
   with Barbara, which is there's two things going on in my life, one of
   which is White House access. The other is Presidential appointees.
   
   Q Right.
   
   A I was very much involved in requesting backgrounds on Presidential
   appointees. Craig's office did White House folks.
   
   Q All right. Other than Craig Livingstone, did you have any
   discussions with anyone else in the current administration regarding
   the manner in which file reconstruction would take place?
   
   A I don't recall doing so, other than, you know, from time to time,
   you know, telling Bernie, for example, or, you know, maybe Vince
   Foster, after his death Joel Klein, you know, that we were working on
   things, we were making progress, we were having problems but nothing
   -- you know, I don't recall ever discussing the details of how that
   process worked with anybody other than Craig.
   
   Q Did you ever have an opportunity -- were you ever made aware of the
   fact that there were, that there were files being requested -- were
   you ever made aware, while you were there working in the White House,
   that there were files being requested on people who no longer were
   there from past Bush and Reagan administrations?
   
   A That files were being requested by people who had worked --
   
   Q Yes.
   
   A Yes. Of course, I knew that. That was sort of the holdover project.
   
   Q Yes.
   
   A Right.
   
   Q Were you ever made aware of the fact that there were files being
   requested on people who were no longer -- who were not simply
   holdovers?
   
   A No. I mean, I did not know that that was happening.
   
   Q And the first time you found out that was happening was when?
   
   A Press reports 2 weeks ago, whenever this first started.
   
   Q Let me just -- you have talked about this but let me just go back
   for a moment to the Nussbaum -- the fax that you received from Mr.
   Nussbaum. Again, can you just run through the circumstances under
   which you received that fax?
   
   A Bernie wanted to put a statement out, because -- as I understand it,
   now, I wasn't there, but the press was after him. And he wanted to be
   sure that his statement was accurate. Of course, he knew that I was in
   the counsel's office in this process. And so he called to say, these
   are the press reports.
   
   There's a form with my name on it, you know. What's the story? I said,
   I have no idea. He said, did we ever discuss this? I said, no. He
   said, what can you tell me about this form? And I said, Bernie, I
   don't have it. You know, I can't answer questions about it.
   
   He said, I am going to send it to you. And so he put a statement out,
   and that's basically it and he subsequently put a statement out. I
   have never seen it but press reports tell me.
   
   Q Do you know how Mr. Nussbaum had a copy of that form?
   
   A I do not.
   
   Q You did not ask him how he got it -- he had a copy of it?
   
   A No reason to.
   
   Q All right. Your statement that you made, you have testified that you
   got a call from Sally Paxton.
   
   A I testified that my counsel did.
   
   Q I am sorry. Your counsel got a call from Sally Paxton. And have you
   had any discussions with Sally Paxton directly about your statement?
   
   Mr. Coffield. Let me just clarify this.
   
   Mr. Stroman. Sure.
   
   Mr. Coffield. The conversations regarding his statement were between
   me and Sally Paxton.
   
   Mr. Stroman. Okay.
   
   BY MR. STROMAN:
   
   Q I think you have testified that you knew generally what Mr. Marceca
   was doing but you did not know specifically what he was working on
   with Mr. Livingstone. Is that accurate?
   
   A Yes. I mean, he was generally there to work in that office and help
   that office function. That's what he was detailed to do. What he did
   in that process, I don't know.
   
   Q Okay. So is it your -- did you ever have any discussions with Mr.
   Marceca about the work that he was doing in that office, that you can
   remember?
   
   A On a substantive basis, no. I mean, you know, Tony would bring
   pieces of paper up. I mean, he was working in that office, you know,
   and I would say stuff, like, Tony, how are you doing? How is it going?
   Fine. But on a substantive basis, no.
   
   Q If there were problems with specific background -- if, say, Mr.
   Livingstone had spotted a problem in somebody's background file, he
   would then forward that file to you?
   
   A He would usually bring it to me or else he would call and say, I
   need to talk to you, and sometimes I would go down there. It depends
   on what was going on.
   
   Q And what would you do?
   
   A Look at whatever the information was and make a decision about what
   to do.
   
   Q When you say "look," "make a decision about what to do," what were
   the options that you had?
   
   A Well, unfortunately, that's a complex -- there's not an easy answer
   to that. It depends on the substance of the information, where that
   person was employed, what that person was doing, what that person's
   status was. I couldn't give you, Ron, an easy answer to that.
   
   Q All right. That's fine. Were there ever times when problems came up
   that you needed to talk with someone else to get what you thought was
   a resolution to that problem?
   
   A Again, I want to restrict this answer just to White House access.
   
   Q Right.
   
   A Every once in awhile a problem would come up where there was no
   clear answer about what to do, and I would discuss it with my
   superiors in the counsel's office. And every once in awhile, the
   conclusion would be reached that I should go and discuss these
   problems with that person's superior. So that happened from time to
   time.
   
   Mr. Stroman. Barbara, that's all the questions I have.
   
   BY MS. COMSTOCK:
   
   Q Okay. In the past month or so, has Craig Livingstone contacted you
   at all about this matter?
   
   A He has not.
   
   Q Showing the witness a 4-page statement of Mr. Anthony Marceca, and
   directing your attention to, I guess it's paragraph number 5, which is
   on page 2, Mr. Marceca writes, it was my understanding that every
   person on the lists from which I was working was properly included on
   the lists because they had a legitimate need for access to the White
   House complex.
   
   Do you have any knowledge who gave him -- Mr. Marceca that
   information?
   
   A What information?
   
   Q That the lists that he was working off of were all of people who had
   a legitimate need for access to the White House complex.
   
   A No.
   
   Q All right. Did you ever instruct Craig on where to get lists or
   anything about lists, or where he might find any lists?
   
   A I mean, the short answer is, no. I mean, the -- the gatekeeper over
   there getting in the building is the Secret Service. So that's where
   presumably lists come from.
   
   Q So this was Craig's job to determine what were the appropriate lists
   to use on this project?
   
   A Say that again?
   
   Q Was it Craig's job to determine what were the appropriate lists to
   use on this project?
   
   A Yes. I mean, if you read up higher in his -- in paragraph 4 of his
   statement, page 2, it says, the employee who is retiring showed me the
   various lists for names for which personnel security files needed to
   be created, and he goes on to say, I understood these computerized
   lists come from the United States Secret Service.
   
   Q Okay. Do you know what the various lists that he was working from
   were? Did you ever see any of the lists when you were down in the
   office?
   
   A Well, yeah, I have seen them. I mean, they are huge computer
   printouts, huge. And as I said, there's like, as I understand it, a
   bunch of them. I mean, there's, you know, people that have daily
   access, people that have passes, temporary passes, inactives, all this
   kind of stuff.
   
   Q Okay. And, to your knowledge, was Mr. Marceca reading through these
   previous reports that he was obtaining?
   
   A Again, I don't know. I cannot testify with precision about what Tony
   did on a day-to-day basis. I just don't know.
   
   Q I know you have testified that Mr. Livingstone did not tell you
   about these files. But could you tell us if Mr. Livingstone had come
   to you when he learned that these files, or if anyone at the White
   House under you was handling these files had come to you to tell you
   that they had, for whatever reason, obtained FBI background files of
   people who were not working at the White House, could you tell us what
   you would have told them to do?
   
   A Well, I mean, I would have told them, obviously, to stop that
   immediately. As for -- I would have had to seek guidance as to the
   proper disposition of these backgrounds that had been, I don't know
   what the proper term is, had been requested but shouldn't have been,
   because these people had no need for access. Remember, these are
   copies. These are not -- a copy of each of these backgrounds resides
   at the FBI.
   
   Q I understand.
   
   A I am sure you do. So the question would be, do you return them to
   the FBI or do you dispose of them in another way, such as, you know,
   making it a part of the Presidential Archives or what? I would have
   had to seek guidance on that but I would have stopped it immediately.
   
   Q Did you ever have occasion, while you were at the White House, to
   have to send back a file that had been inadvertently requested for
   someone who was not going to be at the White House?
   
   A There were, for example -- I am going to shift over to the -- we had
   people that placed themselves in contention and were selected for a
   Presidential appointment and then dropped out of the process.
   
   Q Uh-huh.
   
   A In cases where a background had already been prepared and come in on
   them. They just decided they didn't want to do the job or something
   came up, family emergency or something. Okay?
   
   Q Yes.
   
   A And those files were sent down to Presidential Archives. Okay?
   
   Q But those were of people who you were considering for some position
   at least at some point?
   
   A That's correct.
   
   Q All right. And people like Marlin Fitzwater or James Baker were not
   among any of those Presidential appointment people?
   
   A No.
   
   Q You had mentioned when you were talking with Mr. Stroman that
   sometimes Tony would bring up some type of papers to you. Do you
   recall what kind of -- what he would be bringing to you? Were they
   things -- do you recall anything that he brought to you on the Update
   Project?
   
   A Huh-uh. I don't think he ever brought me anything on that. But, you
   know, if -- if anything had to come out of that office, I mean, they
   would -- employees would come up. Tony was sometimes one of them. I
   simply don't recall any specifics about that, but I was trying to give
   an accurate answer to Ron's question.
   
   Q Okay. Do you have any knowledge of how the document I have
   identified as Exhibit 7, which was the request for Mr. Dale's previous
   FBI reports, and I will state for the record, we -- apparently there
   were 11 reports and letters and memos attached to this, that the White
   House had copies of. Do you have any knowledge of how these documents
   came to the attention of the counsel's office in the past year or so?
   
   A I have no knowledge of that.
   
   Q Okay. Have you had -- you have not had any discussions with anybody
   about where these were at any point in the process --
   
   A No.
   
   Q -- in the past year or two?
   
   A No.
   
   Q Have you discussed this matter with anybody else at the White House
   or any former employees other than Mr. Nussbaum?
   
   A I have not.
   
   Q Did you know who Lisa Wetzl was?
   
   A Lisa Wetzl was an employee in the Office of White House Personnel
   Security.
   
   Q Do you have an understanding of what she did in that office?
   
   A Not any more than I know what Tony did. I mean, she worked in the
   office. She worked in the process. What she did precisely every day, I
   cannot tell you.
   
   Q All right. Do you know who Mari Anderson is?
   
   A She is a former employee, and Lisa may be a former employee for all
   I know, but she worked in the White House Office of Personnel
   Security.
   
   Q Okay. Do you have any knowledge of what she worked on?
   
   A No. Same answer.
   
   Q And both Lisa and Mari were under Craig and reported to Craig?
   
   A That's correct.
   
   Q And do you know who George Saunders is?
   
   A George Saunders is a retired FBI agent who worked as a consultant to
   the White House on security matters.
   
   Q Could you describe what he did as a consultant?
   
   A If a problem, for example, surfaced in a person's background and we
   felt like it needed further investigation, we would employ George to
   conduct an interview of that employee, to flesh out that allegation,
   whatever it might be.
   
   In addition in the early negotiation, George assisted us in
   procedures. You know, he helped us flesh out the procedures we should
   be following. That's basically it.
   
   Q Do you have any knowledge of whether or not he worked on this Update
   Project?
   
   A I do not. I don't believe he did but I have no knowledge of it.
   
   Q I just wanted to return, just a little briefly, generally to the
   Travel Office matter.
   
   A Oh, boy.
   
   Q Do you recall Craig Livingstone ever saying anything to you about he
   didn't think the FBI should be brought into dealing with the Travel
   Office?
   
   A No.
   
   Q All right. Did he ever participate in any meetings with you and Mr.
   Foster where he made any recommendations regarding the Travel Office?
   
   A No, not that I recall.
   
   Q During the time frame of the fall of 1993 into the winter and spring
   of 1994, do you recall that there were delays in obtaining White House
   passes for individuals, the new employees at the White House?
   
   A When you say, "delays" --
   
   Q Do you recall there being any problems in relation to obtaining
   passes for White House employees?
   
   A There were lots of allegations hurled around at that time about the
   pass process. Do I recall that? Yes, I do.
   
   Q And did Mr. McLarty ever talk to you about any of these matters?
   
   A When you say, "these matters," can you be more specific?
   
   Q About how the pass process was being handled in your office.
   
   A The short answer is, I don't recall him doing so. You know, he may
   have. He may have met with Bernie and communicated, you know, through
   Bernie. I simply can't recall. I don't remember ever meeting directly
   with Mack on this subject.
   
   Q Did Mr. McLarty ever talk to you generally about how the Office of
   Personnel Security was operating or handling security and background
   matters?
   
   A Well, when this -- when this -- these allegations started appearing
   about the pass process, there were inquiries from the Chief of Staff's
   office about, you know, how the process was operating and whether it
   was operating properly and how could it operate faster. I don't recall
   any of them coming from Mack McLarty.
   
   Q Okay. But there was somebody from the Chief of Staff's office who
   made an inquiry to you?
   
   A The short answer is, we talked to -- we reassured them the process
   was working as it was supposed to. I simply can't remember who we
   talked to. I am sorry. I simply can't remember the person's name. It
   could have been Bill Burton or somebody working for Bill Burton who I
   think was around at this point in time.
   
   Q Okay. I am showing the witness an August 19, 1993, letter to
   Congressman Frank Wolf from Mack McLarty.
   
   A Oh, Congressman Wolf, yes.
   
   Q And the beginning of that letter it says, "To our knowledge, there
   have been no material changes in security procedures at the White
   House when compared to those of previous administrations. The security
   function as to personnel rests primarily with the Office of White
   House Personnel Security, which is under the direction of the Office
   of the Counsel to the President."
   
   Does that refresh your recollection as to whether or not you talked to
   anybody in Mr. McLarty's office regarding how your office was
   functioning in general?
   
   A I have told you that we did. I can't remember who. Okay?
   
   I mean, I don't remember discussing this directly with Mack McLarty,
   period.
   
   Q Okay. Another series of letters, this is from October 27th, another
   letter to Congressman Wolf from Mr. McLarty.
   
   A Oh, yes.
   
   Q And then a February 24th, 1994, letter, and essentially in all of
   these letters they do say that procedures are being handled in a
   timely manner.
   
   Do you recall giving -- did you ever give that information to anybody
   in Mr. McLarty's office?
   
   A Give what information?
   
   Q That these procedures were being -- security clearances were being
   handled in a timely manner?
   
   A I mean, that's what was happening.
   
   Q Okay. And do you recall any discussions you had with Mr. McLarty
   about --
   
   A I stand by my previous testimony. I don't remember. It's possible
   but I do not remember discussing this directly with Mr. McLarty. I
   definitely discussed it with someone in the Chief of Staff's office.
   
   Ms. Comstock. Okay. I will make these three letters Exhibit 9.
   
   [Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 9
   
   was marked for identification.]
   
   BY MS. COMSTOCK:
   
   Q And how long have you known Mr. McLarty?
   
   A A pretty good while.
   
   Q Is he a social acquaintance of yours from Little Rock?
   
   A That would be a fair way of putting it, yes.
   
   Q Have you known him for over 10 years?
   
   A Probably.
   
   Q Okay. Did you frequently talk with him when you were at the White
   House just in general, not particularly about this matter but in
   general?
   
   A No.
   
   Q And in -- I believe it was in March of 1994, you were relieved of
   your duties in the area of White House passes; is that correct?
   
   A Uh-huh, shifted to other areas.
   
   Q And did Mr. McLarty talk to you about that at that time?
   
   A He did not.
   
   Q Did anybody in the counsel's office talk with you about that?
   
   A Lloyd Cutler.
   
   Q Okay. And what did Mr. Cutler tell you?
   
   A Because of the allegations that had been made regarding nanny taxes
   and whatnot, that they felt it was best if I took a lower profile
   function in the counsel's office.
   
   Q Okay. Did you ever talk to him at that time about anything having to
   do with Craig Livingstone being in that office and any problems that
   Mr. Livingstone had in handling the work load at that time in the
   March '94, spring '94 time frame?
   
   A That office was constantly swamped, period. And so I made sure that
   they were aware that the office had more work than it could do at that
   point in time.
   
   Q Were you aware of Mr. Cutler making any efforts to find out about
   how the Office of Personnel Security was operating at that time and
   who was in charge of things and how things were functioning?
   
   A He didn't ask me. I have no knowledge of that. You'd have to ask
   him.
   
   Q Who took over those duties after you were relieved of them?
   
   A Who took over what duties?
   
   Q Overseeing the Office of Personnel Security?
   
   A Beth Nolan.
   
   Q And did you meet with Ms. Nolan and explain to her this office?
   
   A Yes. Yes.
   
   Q And were you -- did Ms. Nolan ever tell you about any problems that
   she had with Mr. Livingstone or the operations of that office during
   the time she was overseeing it?
   
   A Not that I recall with specificity, huh-uh.
   
   Q Do you have any general recollections of any problems that she may
   have raised with you?
   
   A The one thing that I told her is that the office was swamped; I
   mean, that they were drowning in paper down there and that she had to
   be assisting, she had to help fight the bureaucratic battles necessary
   to get the people in there to get the job done.
   
   Q And are you aware of additional staff being put in that office at
   that time?
   
   A At that point in time, I quit overseeing that office in any way,
   shape, or form so I can't answer that. I don't know.
   
   Q Okay. Were you and Ms. Nolan office mates in the same suite?
   
   A Uh-huh.
   
   Q Okay. That is the extent of your knowledge of what went on in that
   office?
   
   A Yeah. I mean, I basically started doing other things.
   
   Q I am showing the witness BFF 1067 through 1068. Do you recognize
   that handwriting?
   
   A No, I do not.
   
   Q Okay. Do you know who Guy Caputo is?
   
   A No, I do not.
   
   Q Or Mr. McGaw?
   
   A I think Mr. McGaw at one point he was employed by the Secret
   Service. He is doing something else. He may be at Treasury maybe. I
   just don't know.
   
   Q Okay. For the record, these are handwritten notes that were provided
   by Bobbie Faye Ferguson who worked with Harry Thomason at the White
   House in the spring of 1993.
   
   Were you ever aware of Craig Livingstone meeting with Harry Thomason
   about anything having to do with the Secret Service?
   
   A No.
   
   Q Were you aware of Harry Thomason handling any issues relating to the
   Secret Service?
   
   A No.
   
   Q Or the military office?
   
   A No.
   
   Q Were you aware of any complaints that anyone in the First Family
   made about Director McGaw or Deputy Director Guy Caputo of the Secret
   Service?
   
   A No. I have seen press reports, you know, reporting on the rumors of
   unhappiness with the Secret Service, but I have no knowledge of the
   accuracy of those reports.
   
   Ms. Comstock. I will make this Exhibit 10.
   
   [Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 10
   
   was marked for identification.]
   
   Ms. Comstock. This is CGE 029184, which are handwritten notes from Mr.
   Watkins of April 16th, 1993. The top of them reads, Bruce and Harry
   Thomason, and then discusses conversations with Hillary, conversations
   with Bruce.
   
   [Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 11
   
   was marked for identification.]
   
   BY MS. COMSTOCK:
   
   Q First of all, do you recognize that handwriting as Mr. Watkins'?
   
   A No.
   
   Q Do you know who a Bob Coy is?
   
   A No.
   
   Q From California?
   
   A I do not.
   
   Q Did you have any knowledge of any conversations that Bruce Lindsey
   or Harry Thomason had about any matters relating to the Secret
   Service?
   
   A No.
   
   Q Were you aware of any discussions by anybody at the White House of
   any Secret Service agents leaking information or talking to Bob
   Woodward?
   
   A No.
   
   Q Okay. Is anything on those handwritten notes at all familiar to you?
   
   A In what regard?
   
   Q On topics that you may have discussed at the White House with Mr.
   Watkins or Mr. Thomason or Mr. Lindsey or the President or the First
   Lady?
   
   A Well, there's this -- it says, Charter Press, be taking kickbacks, I
   mean, that could relate to the Travel Office but -- 5 percent
   kickback, that could relate to the Travel Office, but apart from that
   I don't recognize any of these other references.
   
   Q Do you recall the kickback allegation being made in relation to the
   Travel Office?
   
   A I don't recall a specific allegation being made. I remember, as I
   previously testified, that Harry Thomason thought the office was being
   operated in a funny way.
   
   Q And he had mentioned kickbacks to you?
   
   A He did not mention kickbacks to me specifically, no. I don't recall
   him doing so.
   
   Ms. Comstock. Okay. I believe that is all I have. Thank you, Mr.
   Kennedy.
   
   Mr. Coffield. Thank you.
   
   The Witness. You are quite welcome.
   
   [Whereupon, at 11:35 a.m., the deposition was concluded.]
   
   CONTENTS
   
   EXHIBIT NO. PAGE
   
   Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 1
   
   was marked for identification.............................. 33
   
   Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 2
   
   was marked for identification.............................. 35
   
   Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 3
   
   was marked for identification.............................. 36
   
   Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 4
   
   was marked for identification.............................. 39
   
   Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 5
   
   was marked for identification.............................. 39
   
   Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 6
   
   was marked for identification.............................. 44
   
   Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 7
   
   was marked for identification.............................. 54
   
   Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 8
   
   was marked for identification.............................. 54
   
   Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 9
   
   was marked for identification.............................. 77
   
   Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 10
   
   was marked for identification.............................. 81
   
   Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 11
   
   was marked for identification.............................. 81




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