COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES WASHINGTON, D.C. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x : In the matter of: : : WHITE HOUSE TRAVEL : DEPOSITION OF : WILLIAM H. KENNEDY, III : - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x Tuesday, June 18, 1996 Washington, D.C. The deposition in the above matter was held in Room 2203, Rayburn House Office Building, commencing at 9:35 a.m. Appearances: Staff Present for the Government Reform and Oversight Committee: Barbara Comstock, Investigative Counsel; Barbara Olson, Chief Counsel; Laurie Taylor, Assistant Counsel; Kristi Remington, Investigator; and Donald Goldberg, Minority, Assistant to Counsel. For WILLIAM H. KENNEDY, III: JOHN CONRAD HANKS, ESQ. WILLIAM F. COFFIELD, ESQ. Sharp & Lankford 1785 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20036 Ms. Comstock. We are on the record this morning for the deposition of Bill Kennedy, which will be administered under oath. I will identify the people present in the room. My name is Barbara Comstock; I am a Majority investigative counsel. Laurie Taylor is assistant counsel. Our chief investigative counsel, Barbara Olson, is here and also Kristi Remington, assistant counsel in our office. Don Goldberg from the Minority staff is also present. We are conducting this deposition pursuant to House Resolution 369, which I believe you are familiar with, Mr. Kennedy, from a previous deposition so I will not go through the previous statement of scope this morning. THEREUPON, WILLIAM H. KENNEDY, III, a witness, was called for examination by counsel, and after having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Mr. Kennedy, you joined the White House Counsel's Office in March of '93; is that correct? A No, that's not correct. February of '93. Q Okay. Was it late February? A Nope. First week of February. Q Okay. And do you know who was involved in your hiring? A With specificity, no. Q Did the First Lady have any involvement in your hiring? A She did. Q Do you know if the First Lady was involved in hiring Mr. Nussbaum at all? A I can't answer that. Q Do you know if the First Lady was involved in hiring Mr. Foster at all? A I presume she was. I don't know that directly. Q Do you know if the First Lady was involved at all with the hiring of Craig Livingston in your office? A I don't believe she was. I do not know one way or the other. I don't believe so. Q Do you recall ever saying to anyone that the First Lady wanted to have Craig Livingston in the position at the Security Office at the White House? A Me ever saying that? Q Yes. A I never said that. Q Do you recall when you got your security clearance when you were at the White House? A Huh-uh. No. Q Do you know who adjudicated your file? A I do not. Q Do you know if there were any tax problems that came to anyone's attention in your file when you first came to the White House in 1993? A I decline to talk about my file. I've never seen it. I don't know what's in it. Q Did there come a time when you had some nanny tax problems? A There were allegations of those problems, yes. Q And had you informed anyone in the counsel's office about those tax problems? A I did. Q And who did you inform? A Vince Foster. Q Had you informed anyone else besides Mr. Foster? A No. Well, I mean the answer is yes; when the allegations hit the press, yes, I talked to Mr. Nussbaum. Q And what did you tell Mr. Nussbaum? A That the allegations were false. Q And why was that? A Why was that what? Q Why were they false? A They weren't true. Mr. Coffield. I remember -- I can't remember with specificity going through the scope of the investigation, but I don't think it's going to wade into his tax problems with his nanny. Ms. Comstock. No, I am trying to find out who he talked with about these problems. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Did you ever have any discussions with anybody in the counsel's office about the suitability of Craig Livingston for this position? A I need to amplify an answer, I have been thinking about your previous question. These allegations about nanny problems came up at a time when Bernie Nussbaum was leaving and Lloyd Cutler was present, so I also discussed them with Lloyd Cutler. Q Thank you for clarifying that. A You asked a question? Q Why don't I go back. You don't know who hired Craig Livingston or how he came to have the position as Director of White House Personnel Security? A No, Craig Livingston had been identified as being sort of the person for that post when I arrived. Q Do you know who identified him as that person to be in charge of that? A No, I do not. Q Do you know if it was somebody in the counsel's office? A I do not know. Q Do you know if Bruce Lindsey was involved in his hiring? A I don't think Bruce Lindsey was, but I don't know. Q At that time was Mr. Lindsey in charge of personnel? A He was in charge of Presidential personnel, yeah. Q Did there come a time when you had any discussions with Mr. Livingston about any concerns that you had about his background? A Yes, there were. Q And could you describe what those conversations were? Mr. Coffield. I don't think he can under the Privacy Act. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Did you ever express to anybody any -- The Witness. Let me discuss something with my counsel. [Witness confers with counsel.] Mr. Goldberg. Would you read the previous question. [The reporter read back as requested.] BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q I think we will stay away from anything that you know for privacy matters. Mr. Coffield. And his concern is, too, whether it enters into a privileged area, too. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Why don't we stick to -- did you ever have any discussions with anyone in the counsel's office about any concerns that you had about Craig Livingston's suitability for the position he was in at the White House? A Yes, I discussed them with Vince Foster, deputy White House counsel at the time. Q And did Mr. Foster express an opinion on whether Mr. Livingston was a suitable individual for the position of heading up White House Personnel Security? A No, he didn't -- you know, he didn't know Craig any more than I did when I arrived, and he suggested that I -- I can't remember exactly -- he suggested that I talk with someone named Christine Varney who worked at the White House who had worked with Craig in the campaign. Q And did you do so? A I did. Q Okay. Can you tell us what Ms. -- A I'm sorry; I mean what I was discussing was stuff contained in Craig's background and I don't believe I can discuss that. Q Did there come a time when you considered having somebody else in that position? A No, first of all, it wasn't my decision to make, and, second of all, the only concerns I had concerned these matters which were not -- I don't know how to describe them. They were items of concern, but they were not killers as it were. And once they were discussed, that was the end of that. Q Do you know whose decision it would have been to change Mr. Livingston from that position? A You're asking me to speculate. I don't know. I do not know how Craig was identified for this job. It was done before I got here. I do not know. You know, it would have probably gone through normal channels in the White House, okay? But at this point in time early in February or -- well, it would have been a little bit later, those channels were still in the process of being worked out. Q Do you have any idea what channel this went through to hire Mr. Livingston? A I do not. I'm sorry. Q And you didn't know who you needed to talk to if you didn't want him to be in that position? A Well, I mean obviously, I followed -- I talked to Mr. Foster about these concerns. Okay? And that's where I thought I was supposed to go. Q Do you know if Mr. Foster ever raised this with anybody above him? A I do not know. Q Did he ever say anything to you after that he had talked to anybody else about Mr. Livingston? A He did not. He did not. Q Do you know if Mr. McLarty was ever consulted on Mr. Livingston's suitability? A I do not know. To my knowledge, he was not, but I can't say that across the board. I just don't know. Q Were you aware that reviewing background files was a sensitive position in need of attention to detail and high integrity? A You bet. Q Did Craig Livingston meet this description in this position? A Yeah, I think so. Q What in his background made you think this was a position that he was suitable for? A What background are we talking about? Q What about Craig Livingston made you feel that he would be an appropriate person for this position? A Craig Livingston had been identified for this position before I got here. That decision was made by others. I came to know Craig as an honest, hard working person. I felt he had sufficient attention to detail to deal with this job. Overall, I thought then and think now he's done an okay job with it. I really have to say I don't understand your question I'm trying to respond to. Q What efforts did you take to make sure that Craig had the proper training for this position? A Craig had no experience in these matters. Neither did I, and so we engaged in OJT, on-the-job training. He got as many briefings as his schedule would allow to allow him to learn security procedures. He worked intensively with Ms. Gemmell, she was the former director of the office, and learned as much from her as he could. He just did his best to get up to speed. I helped him whenever and wherever I could. Q Do you know who provided him with briefings? A You'd have to ask him. I don't know. I think he received some briefings from the Secret Service. I think he received some briefings from the CIA. He may have gotten some from the FBI. You'd have to ask him. But I know he was fairly diligent in trying to get up to speed on the things he should be doing. Q Were you aware of him also working on advance at this time at the White House? A I don't recall him -- I mean, you'd have to tell me what your definition of "advance" is. Q Going on trips, working on setting up advance for trips and making arrangements such as he had done during the campaign. A What time frame are we talking about here? Q In 1993. A He didn't do very much of that. He did some of that. He also helped in arranging security for and assisting in the conducting of events at the White House. He did some advance work, but not very much, if I recall correctly. RPTS COLCHICO DCMN QUINTERO [9:50 a.m.] Q Okay. You had mentioned Ms. Gemmell. I believe Jane Dannenhauer, actually, had be the prior director of the office. A You may be right. I may have their titling confused, but Nancy had been in the office for a long time. Q Okay. Were you aware of whether or not Ms. Dannenhauer had split her duties between Advance and Personnel Security? A I don't know -- I have only a superficial knowledge of sort of how they operated. Q What type of training did you get in this background? A In what background? Q In working on background investigations in security matters? A Not as intensively as Craig got, but I did reading on it and tried to understand the policies and procedures, received some briefings myself from the CIA and talked to the FBI about how they did things, questioned Ms. Gemmell and to a lesser extent Ms. Dannenhauer about how they operated things. Q Do you recall what you read? A No. I can't recall the details. There are a number of manuals that you can get your hands on about how backgrounds are conducted, the standards that you use, the policy and procedures manuals. Q Do you recall who gave those to you? A I got -- you know, I can't recall specifically. Some were there in the Security Office. Some were available in the OEOB Library. Bits and pieces came in from the agencies that we dealt with. I can't remember specifically. Q I believe I had asked you if you had ever told anyone that the First Lady wanted Craig in this position. But I also wanted to ask you did the First Lady ever tell you that she wanted Craig Livingstone in this position? A No. Q Could you describe what type of supervision you did of Craig Livingstone in this position? A I did not supervise Craig on a day-to-day basis. I had another full-time job of my own. Craig was to run the Office of White House Personnel Security. It was his job to make that office and that function work. And we worked out arrangements where he brought problems to me that he thought had risen to the level that I needed to give them attention. Q Can you describe what your other full-time job was? A I was clearing presidential appointees, PASs, PAs, other presidential appointees, through the Office of the Counsel to the President. Q This was in addition to clearing all the White House personnel for their backgrounds? A Well, that was my primary function. Craig's primary function was dealing with the White House passes and he reported to me. But I didn't give him day-to-day supervision. He came to me when he had problems, if he needed help, stuff like that. Q All right. Could you describe what Craig's role was in this process? A In which process? Q In the backgrounds and the clearances. A Of whom? Q Of anybody. A Well, I just gave you a dichotomy. I am running a clearance process for presidential nominees and appointees. Q Was he involved in the presidential appointees or nominees? A Only in coordinating paperwork. He didn't do anything more substantive than that unless there was an intersection between a presidential appointee and the work that he was doing, as, for example, somebody holding a pass got appointed to a PSA, then I would interact with his office and we would interact in that process. Q So would Craig get the initial paperwork? Would it come from his office? A Not all of it, but some of it he would. Q Okay. What would he get? A You have to be more specific, Barbara. What are you talking about? Q I am talking about presidential appointees, what paperwork would Craig Livingstone have had? A I think as a matter of convenience we ran the IRS checks because they were coming over from the IRS. They came over as a group, and he would send the IRS checks on PAs and PASs and other presidential appointees up to our office. Q Okay. And then would they be returned to your office? A It's not a question of return. They were coming to my office because that's where they belonged. Q I am trying to get a sense of the paper flow here. What paper was going through Craig's office, if you could explain that, please? A Well, the problem that you and I are having is you are mixing apples and oranges. Q Why don't you explain? A Well, but I keep -- with all due respect, I keep asking you, what are you talking about? Just think of it this way: You have a clearance process for people holding White House passes. Then you have a clearance process for people that are -- that receive presidential appointees and sometimes they intersect. Most of the time they don't, but sometimes they do. Craig is running one. I am basically running the other. Craig is reporting to me. Okay? If he is having problems, if he needs help, if he wants to talk about something, he comes to me with it. I helped him whenever I could. I did everything I could to be sure that his office functioned smoothly. But, now, if you want to talk about one process or the other, I can answer your questions. But the way -- Q Okay. We were on the presidential appointment process and I am asking you what initial -- if any initial paperwork went into Craig Livingstone's office. A Okay. I believe, but don't hold me to this, that as a matter of convenience the IRS tax-check forms came to Craig's office and came upstairs to us. Q Okay. A On presidential appointees. Q And to your knowledge, did Craig Livingstone review those at all? A I don't believe he did. I don't know. I don't think he did, other than somebody had to separate them. Q Okay. Did you ever tell him not to review them or what to do with them? A The -- what to do with them? Yes. Okay. Send them up to us. Q Okay. Aside from sending them up to you, did you ever tell him whether or not he could look at them or if he should look at them or not? A I don't recall having that discussion. Craig had plenty to do. Okay? I mean, it would be -- it would be beyond my wildest imagination if he thought that he should look at presidential appointee IRSs. To my knowledge, he did not. Q But I am asking you a different question. Did you ever instruct him one way or the other? A Did not feel the need to is a better way to answer your question. Q Okay. Aside from those IRS forms, did any of the paperwork or any of the background checks of these presidential appointees go through Mr. Livingstone's office? A I don't think so. I don't remember precisely. I don't think so. I think I can say, to the best of my knowledge, that only the IRS stuff came over, simply as a matter of convenience. Q And then switching over to the White House employees who were -- or Executive Office of the President employees who were having background checks done, can you describe what paper in that area went through Mr. Livingstone's office? A Almost all of it, if not all of it, with regard to those people. Q And did Mr. Livingstone review all of those backgrounds? A As far as I know, he did, yes. Q And could you describe what guidance you provided to him on reviewing those backgrounds? A The guidance that I previously spoke about. I mean, he reviewed the standards and procedures, just as I did, to understand how the process was supposed to work and what standards to apply in adjudicating backgrounds. Q Okay. Could you briefly describe those standards? A It's very hard to describe them, other than in terms of you would look for, you know, obvious criminal behavior. You would look for conduct which would indicate a possible threat to security. You look for evidence of general character or lack thereof. You look for weaknesses in character illustrated by, you know, any number of things. And you just try to get a feel for the individual as shown by these backgrounds. Q And you were confident with Craig Livingstone's ability to review these matters? A Yes, I was. Q Okay. And could you describe how Craig would have -- what he would do in reviewing these files, how he would pass them on to you? A Those files did not come to me unless there was a problem that he felt like he needed to discuss with me. Q All right. So Craig Livingstone was adjudicating the files completely? A No. If he felt like he had a problem that needed to come to my attention, in other words, if there was a substantive problem in someone's background, he would usually bring those to me and say: I think this is a problem; do you agree? Okay? But was he adjudicating backgrounds, yes, that was his job. Q Okay. And so if Mr. Livingstone reviewed a file and decided there was nothing wrong with it, you would never see it? A That's right. Q Did Mr. Livingstone -- A As you know, there are hundreds and hundreds of these things. Q I understand. A Hundreds and hundreds. Q Did you ever meet with the individual who had worked or any individual who had worked in this position at the White House prior to -- an attorney who worked in this prior? A Any attorney? Q Yes. Any White House Counsel who had overseen this process in the past. A Not to my knowledge. I mean, I can't -- I don't know, for example, who in Boyden Gray's office had this responsibility. I don't know. I may have run into him, but I don't know. Q I am just wondering if you ever sought out anybody for their assistance or guidance on these matters? A Other than Ms. Dannenhauer and her previous staff, no. Q Can you describe approximately how much of your time was spent on handling these background investigations in presidential appointee matters? A Which one are we talking about? Q Well, why don't we -- the two combined, what percent of your time was spent on that and then if you can separate out the two. A 120 percent on the two combined. 100 percent over here, 20 percent over here. Q 100 percent on the presidential appointees and 20 percent on the backgrounds? A Uh-huh. Q So would it be fair to say that Mr. Livingstone was doing the lion's share of the adjudicating of the files then? A Which files are we talking about? Q Of the White House Executive Office of the President files? A Yes. That was his job. And he would bring problems to me. Q What was the process by which he would bring problems to you? A He would call me on the phone or else stop by and say, I need to talk to you. I have got some problems we need to discuss. And I would say either come on in or I would make an appointment with him, or sometimes I would stop by his office and we would talk about whatever we needed to talk about. Q Okay. Would he provide you with the files that he had concerns about? A He would usually provide me just with the background, usually. Sometimes it would be a tax check, but rarely would it be somebody's SF-86. Rarely would it be any other information. I would say close to 100 percent of the time the problems would show up in the background. Q Okay. Would he physically show you the documents and the paperwork on such an individual? A Well, he would show me the background. That's where most of the problems would be. And if he had a document that showed me another problem, he would show me that. Q And then how -- then you would resolve these matters at that point? A Yes. Q And who would -- did you discuss these kind of matters with anybody, any of your superiors? A Every once in a while something would rise to the level that I would go discuss it with Bernie Nussbaum or whoever my boss was at the time. Q So it would be Bernie Nussbaum or whoever was White House Counsel at the time? A Sometimes it would be Mr. Foster or the Deputy White House Counsel. Q All right. Would you ever discuss -- besides the Deputy Counsel or the White House Counsel, did you ever discuss this with anybody else at the White House? A Well, all right. Who are we talking about? Are we talking about presidential appointees or are we talking about White House -- Q We are talking about the matters that Mr. Livingstone would bring to your attention, which would, I assume, be the White House employees? A Every once in awhile I would be directed to go and talk to whoever was going to use that person. Just for example, picking out of the air, if someone was going to go to the Office of Public Liaison, okay, and there was a matter in that person's background that I thought might be problematical and whatever basis it might be, I would usually go up the chain of command inside the Counsel's Office and sometimes the decision would be made, go and advise this person's prospective superior that this situation exists and let them make the call. Q Were these matters ever discussed with Mr. McLarty, to your knowledge? A I cannot recall ever discussing a background with Mr. McLarty. Whether they -- any matters got to him through another way, I don't know. Q Do you know if the First Lady was ever involved with any of these problem matters? A Okay. Well, look -- Q Why don't we -- we are dealing with not the presidential appointees, but the -- A Okay, Barbara, you have got to do this because the answer that I just gave you is not true with regard to presidential appointees. Q Okay. Let's put presidential appointees aside for now. A Okay. I don't recall ever discussing a problem in a background directly with Mack McLarty. Q Okay. Or the First Lady? A No. Q Okay. Did the First Lady ever involve herself in any matters dealing with background investigations or clearances? A Not to my knowledge. Q Are you aware of any problems that were ever raised by the President or the First Lady with any of the residence staff? A No. I am unaware of any problems that were raised, although I have read press reports, of course. Q Okay. And are you aware of Craig Livingstone ever requesting a background investigation of a residence staffer out of the ordinary course of business? A I am unaware of any such activity. I don't believe it occurred. Q Okay. So you have no knowledge of any such request of Mr. Livingstone? A Huh-uh. Q And you have no knowledge of Mr. Livingstone taking it upon himself in any way to do that? A No. As I say, I don't believe it happened. Q Were you aware of Craig Livingstone having interns and volunteers working in his office? A Yes. Q Did you ever discuss this with him? A Sure. We were -- he in particular was swamped. He had both detailees and interns and volunteers working there. I am not sure he had volunteers there. I think he mostly had interns. Q Okay. And did you approve him having interns in the office? A Yes. Q Okay. Could you describe any discussions you had with him about these interns? A I made sure that he knew that the interns could not see information which would be considered confidential and whatnot; that they could help process paperwork. Q Okay. Do you know if the interns were provided with any memos or documents to that effect? A I can't answer that. I presume Craig did so, but he may have advised them verbally of that. I just don't know. Q Do you know if any of the interns had any security clearances? A If they had access to the White House, they did. Q The interns would? A If they had a White House pass, if they had access to the White House, they had had a level of security clearance, yes. Q Were you aware of the interns working in the vault that was in Craig Livingstone's office? A I don't believe they did, but I also don't know. As I say, I was not in Craig's office on a daily basis. Q Okay. How often were you in his office? A Sporadically. Q All right. Can you describe more specifically? Weekly? A I absolutely cannot. I mean, it was sporadic. It was on an as-needed basis. You know, I am sure there were weeks that went by that I didn't go in at all and then I may come in two or three times in a week. Q Do you recall in what type of -- for what type of reasons you would go to Mr. Livingstone's office? A Ninety-nine percent of the time it would be to discuss a problem that he might be having with a prospective White House employee or a current White House employee. It would be sometimes go to retrieve information. It just could be anything under the sun. Q Were you aware of Mr. Livingstone ever having any problems with any interns at the White House? A You would have to put some content in the word "problems." I don't recall him having any problems with interns but that's not to say it didn't happen. Q Did he ever raise with you any problems that he had with the interns? A I don't recall him doing so. He may have. I simply do not recall. I don't recall anything substantive. Again, when you say this, I'm talking about interns that worked for Craig. Q Yes, I understand. Okay. Did there come a time when Craig talked to you about hiring Anthony Marceca to work at the White House? A Yes. Q All right. And can you describe how that came about? A Craig needed help. He was swamped. There was a ton of work to be done. He came and he said that he had worked with Marceca before, thought he was a good hand and that he had talked with Marceca, and Marceca was interested in coming to work at the White House with Craig and he wanted to do this. Q Okay. And what did you say? A I said, tell me about him. So he did. And then I said, well, if you want to use him, we will try and get him. Q All right. Did you get any information on Mr. Marceca independently of Craig's recommendation? A Did not. Q Okay. Did you -- A Well, later on, you know, his background came in the normal course. Q Did you interview Mr. Marceca? A The short answer would be, I don't know if you would call it a normal interview, but did I talk to Tony, yes, I did. Q And could you describe that contact? A I had a practice of trying to meet all of the detailees that were going to work in the White House Security Office -- White House office -- the Office of White House Personnel Security. Craig and I thought it was helpful just to eyeball them, see who they were, make a little speech about how they are working with sensitive information and they needed to be careful what they did with it, how they did with it and like that. And so, you know, Craig brought Tony by one day and I visited with him. There was nothing out of the ordinary about that talk. Q How many detailees were there in the Office of Personnel Security? A I think most of the time there were at least two, maybe three, if I remember correctly. Maybe sometimes just one. Q And why were there detailees as opposed to having permanent hires in the office? A They were just -- under the budgets we were operating under, we had a need for detailees. We were operating with detailees in the Counsel's Office as well. Q Okay. And so this was because of the 25 percent personnel cuts you were utilizing detailees as opposed to regular employees? A No. As I understand it, it had been a practice in all administrations to use detailees. I mean, I know from detailees that were on hand when we got there that the Bush administration had used detailees as well. Q In the Personnel Security Office? A I don't know the answer to that, but they had used them in the Counsel's Office, for example. Q Do you know any of the other detailees who were in the Personnel Security Office? A I met them. I can't remember their names right now. If you refresh my memory in some form or fashion, I could probably identify them. But you know they rotated in and out. Q No, I didn't know. A Oh, yes, you do. They rotate in and out, detailees come over -- Q I didn't know that there were other detailees in the Personnel Security Office. Do you have any other information to that effect? A As far as I know, there were. Okay? But they rotate in and out. They serve usually a term of months. Q Okay. And were these nonreimbursable detailees, usually, that the White House didn't have to pay for them? A I don't know if you could say the word "usually," but in some cases they were nonreimbursable, yes. Q Okay. Do you know what Mr. Marceca was hired to do in the Office of Personnel Security? A Well, he was hired to help, first and foremost. Craig thought he would be particularly helpful with regard to the military personnel, of which there are a ton that have access to the White House complex. Q And do you know who Mr. Marceca was to report to? A When? Q While he was working at the White House? A Craig Livingstone. Q Was Craig Livingstone his supervisor? A Yes. Q What had Craig told you about anything he -- how long he had known Mr. Marceca or anything about his personal relationship with Mr. Marceca? A I can't recall the specifics of it, but he said he had known Tony, that he had worked with Tony. I think he had mentioned that he had worked with Tony some in the Inauguration; mentioned that he was a criminal investigator for the Army. Again, that's the reason that he thought he would be of use with regard to security matters. You know, that's basically it. I mean, he just said that he had worked with him before and had a high opinion of him. You can boil it all down to that. And that Tony wanted to come. Q Okay. Were you aware that Mr. Marceca had a political background also? A Other than the fact I remember Craig said that he had helped some in an Inauguration event. But the answer is, no, I don't think I knew at the time that he -- I think I reviewed a resume which said that he had Hill experience, if I remember correctly. He had worked for some subcommittee. Okay? What's the definition of "political"? Q Did you have any knowledge of him working on campaigns? A I don't think so at the time. Q And you said Mr. Marceca did provide you with a resume? A I think Craig did. I don't remember Tony handing me a resume. I think Craig did. Q I am showing the witness a letter which is CGE 43823. It's an April 5th, 1993 letter to Secretary of Defense Les Aspin from Mr. Kennedy. Directing your attention to the second paragraph of the letter, second sentence in that paragraph, it says: "I have learned of Agent Marceca's unique investigative abilities and background and would greatly appreciate his full-time assistance here." A Uh-huh. Q Do you know where you had learned about his abilities and background? A It would have come from Craig or the resume. Ms. Comstock. I will make this Exhibit 1. [Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.] BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Did you consult with anyone else at the White House about detailing Mr. Marceca? A I do not recall doing so, no. Q Do you recall how you learned that Secretary Aspin was the individual to write to in this matter? A No, I don't recall the details of -- other than this was the procedure that you had to go through to get somebody detailed from a military background. I don't remember who told me that or what the story was, but this is what you had to do. Q Do you know if someone drafted this letter for you? A Either I wrote it or I asked Craig to write it for me. I can't remember. Q Okay. Did you have a secretary at the time? A I did not. Q All right. Did you usually type your own work? A I did. Q Do you know if Craig usually typed his own letters? A I can't answer that. I don't know quite how Craig did his document crunching. I just don't know. Q This is CGE 43821, which is an April 6th letter from David Allen to Mr. Kennedy. Basically, it's a recommendation letter for Mr. Marceca. Did you have an understanding -- using this letter to refresh your recollection, did you have an understanding of Mr. Marceca's level of ability given this recommendation? A Did I have an understanding? Q Yes. A I don't understand your question. Q I am just wondering, did you consider him a low-level clerk, for example? A Well, I don't know -- I don't know. When? I mean, are we talking about the work that he did where he was? Q I am talking about who you were under -- for the position you were hiring him for, did you have an understanding of what his abilities were, whether they were of a low-, medium- or high-level of ability in this area? A I'm -- I must -- my brain must not be working today. I am sorry. I don't understand what you are asking. Are you asking -- look, at this point in time, if this is what you are asking, he is not here yet. Q Okay. Well, in seeking somebody to assist Mr. Livingstone, were you seeking a low-level person who had no knowledge of how to do this job or were you seeking someone who had some knowledge and ability in this area? A I was responding to Craig's request. I didn't know Tony Marceca from Adam. Okay? Period. I mean, I had -- until Craig said, I need help -- which I knew -- and I have someone in mind, I had never heard of this individual. Okay? Craig, who I had confidence in, comes and says, I think this guy is a good hand. I don't know how to answer it any better than that. Q Did you want Craig to find someone who had some experience or abilities in the area that he was going to be assisting Mr. Livingstone in? A Well, I would -- certainly, I would hope that Craig would get good help. I would certainly hope that. I mean, it would be dumb for Craig not to want to get good help. Ms. Comstock. This is CGE -- I will make this April 6th letter Exhibit 2. That's CGE 43821. [Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.] BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q This is an April 13th letter, again, to Secretary of Defense Les Aspin from William Kennedy and the subject is requesting Mr. Marceca as a detailee. It is CC'd to David Allen and Commander Peter Berry. That's CGE 43816. This letter, directing your attention to the second paragraph, you had requested that the detailee, Mr. Marceca, begin on April 12th, 1993, for 6 months. Do you have -- Mr. Coffield. It's the same letter as Exhibit 1. Ms. Comstock. But it is a different date. Mr. Coffield. Yes. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Do you have any knowledge as to why Mr. Marceca was not detailed in April of 1993? A No. I mean, it had something to do -- I just don't remember the details. It had something to do with where he was employed. I mean, either they couldn't free him up or they didn't want to or we couldn't break the bureaucratic logjam or something. I don't remember the details. Q Okay. Were you aware at that time in April of '93 or thereabouts of any problems in Mr. Marceca's background that would -- that anybody flagged for you as to why he shouldn't be coming to the White House to work in this position? A No. Ms. Comstock. I will make this April 13th letter Exhibit 3. [Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 3 was marked for identification.] BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q CGE 43814, it's a June 22nd, 1993 letter to Colonel Michael Sherfield, Executive Secretary to the Secretary of Defense, from Mr. Kennedy, again, and it's a request for Mr. Marceca to be detailed to the White House. Directing your attention to the first paragraph, it says: "Craig Livingstone has requested that Special Agent Marceca be detailed to the White House for 6 months at the executive level." Do you have any idea approximately what pay level Mr. Marceca was going to be detailed to the White House at? A No. Q Do you have any recollection of what Mr. Livingstone was being paid at the time? A I don't remember precisely. I mean, I think it was -- I just don't remember. I think it was like $50,000 maybe. But that's a guess on my part. You would have to refer to the personnel records. Q And do you have any recollection of his -- the assistants he had in his office, what their pay level was? A Again, these are guesses, which I know I'm not supposed to do, but the short answer is, I think they were in the mid-20s, but I don't know. I just don't remember. Q Okay. Again, do you recall if you typed up this letter or put the information in this letter? A Either Craig did it for me or I did it. And it's entirely possible that Craig brought me a draft which I marked up, you know, redid. I just -- I'm sorry. I don't recall exactly how that happened. Q All right. Outside of talking to Craig, had you obtained any -- and meeting Mr. Marceca, had you obtained any other information about Mr. Marceca prior to requesting him to be detailed to the White House? A No. Q Do you recall any discussions during this time frame in the spring/summer of 1993, regarding getting Mr. Marceca to come over to the White House? A The time frame again? Q The spring and summer of 1993. And if it assists, he did not get to the White House apparently until August 18th, 1993. A As I said, there were summaries and the details of which I cannot recall, that he couldn't be detailed immediately. And I don't remember what they were. Craig continued to work at it, you know. He still thought -- had a high opinion of Tony, and this subsequent letter is, you know, another attempt to break whatever the bureaucratic rules there were to get Mr. Marceca detailed over. Ms. Comstock. I will make that June 22nd letter Exhibit 4. [Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 4 was marked for identification.] BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q This is CGE 43812, an August 5th letter for associate -- for Associate Counsel to the President, which I believe was probably directed to you, regarding your request for the detail of Special Agent Marceca. This memo says: Your June 22nd request for Mr. Marceca on a 6-month nonreimbursable basis was approved. Do you recall having any conversations with anybody around this time frame? A I don't. I know at some point somewhere along this odyssey of getting him detailed, I think I spoke with somebody in the chain of command for Tony, and I can't remember who. I can't remember the substance of the conversation other than it was -- whatever was holding him up in terms of a detail, it had been resolved. I can't remember anything more than that. So we fired a second letter off. Ms. Comstock. Okay. When Mr. Marceca arrived at the -- I will make this August 5th memo Exhibit 5. [Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 5 was marked for identification.] BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q This is CGE 43810. Could you describe -- this is a form entitled: "White House Office, Personnel From Other Agencies." It's dated February 28th, 1994. The signature of the White House approving official is Mr. Kennedy. At the top of it, it says: "This is to request that the following individual perform duties at the EOP complex." And the name of the person requested is Anthony Marceca. A Uh-huh. Q Was this a form to extend Mr. Marceca's detail at the White House? A This is a form to commence the seeking of him as a detailee. Q This was in 1994. A I understand, but that's -- I mean, either this paperwork wasn't filed when it was supposed to -- actually, what this is -- you have it exactly right and I am wrong, and for that I apologize. This is a form that has to do with extending him as a detailee, I believe. And it's also, if you noticed, it says, start reimbursement. If he had been extended as a detailee, the White House would have had to make him a reimbursable detailee beyond his 6 months, if I remember the way the system worked. Q Okay. So this form represents an attempt by the White House to keep Mr. Marceca at the White House beyond the 6-month detailee position? A That's what it appears to be, yes. Q Do you recall the circumstances surrounding trying to get that extension? A I think -- I know Craig wanted to keep Tony Marceca there. You know, I don't know whose handwriting this is, but somebody, either Craig or somebody, would have brought me this form, which I signed. I know Craig wanted to keep him there. Q Okay. Now, we have been informed by the White House that he did leave sometime in February of '94. Do you know why he was not retained at the White House? A Well, I don't remember the timing involved. Okay? I simply do not know exactly when things took place. But if I remember correctly, there were two things that sort of impacted on this. One of which is that the White House, I don't believe, wanted to pick up paying for him. That's number one. Number two, Tony's background had come in and there were some problems revealed with it that made me think it might be better if he kind of went back to where he was. Q Okay. So his background had not come in prior to him coming to the White House in August of 1993? A That's the way it always worked. Q Had any paperwork on his background been transferred to the White House prior to his coming to the White House in August of 1993? A I can't answer that. I don't know. Okay? I don't know. I don't know if -- you know, what the status of paperwork was on him. The background I am referring to is the background that was performed on him so that he could have continued access at the White House. Q Okay. And you recall learning of -- we are not going to go into these problems. I understand the situation there. But you did not learn of any problems in Mr. Marceca's background until sometime in 1994? A Again, don't hold me to the time. I simply don't recall. I don't -- if I remember correctly, that background took a while to come in. I don't know why. And I don't know the timing. I simply don't know. Okay? When it did come in, there were some problems, which I can't talk about, and the detail kind of ran its course. If I remember correctly, we encountered resistance, and the two things together, we decided it was best for him not to stay on. Q Can you describe what kind of resistance you encountered and where that came from? A I am talking about the reimbursement. Q Now, was that the only resistance that prevented him from staying on then as opposed to the background problem? A Well, I mean, it's sort of a seamless web. I mean, you know, it's kind of hard to -- I don't remember the specifics of it. I don't remember the timing involved. This form indicates it was somewhere around this period of time, but the bottom line is, is that you take everything in conjunction and it just made sense to return him to where -- back to the Army. Q Now, do you recall whether or not you learned about these problems in his background before or after February 28th, 1994, which is the date that this form is indicating you had signed off on him requesting he stay on as a detailee? A I am sorry. I cannot help you with the times. In other words, I don't know when his FBI background came in. I am sorry. I cannot remember. The problems in his background were not problems that would have led to a termination sort of on the spot. They were not those type problems, period. But when it came time for his 6 months to be up, that, in conjunction with what I was referring to, if I remember correctly, the White House didn't want to pick up paying for him, for whatever reasons. He just went back. Q Okay. So you can't separate out which was in terms of -- when you signed this form, you don't know whether or not you knew about the problems in his background? A I am sorry. I probably did. Okay? But I absolutely don't want to be held to that because I simply can't recall. But I probably had the background in my possession at that point in time, probably. Ms. Comstock. Okay. We are making CGE 43810, that extension of Mr. Marceca's detail, I guess a request form, has been made Exhibit 6. [Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 6 was marked for identification.] BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q During the 6 months while Mr. Marceca was at the White House, were you aware of what he was working on? A With particularity, no. Q Okay. In a general sense? A He was helping Craig, helping that office. Q Okay. Did Craig report to you at all on what Mr. Marceca was working on? A I do not recall him doing so. I don't believe that he did. Q Do you know if there were any other Army people detailed to Craig's office? A There may have been. I am sorry. I simply don't recall. Q Did there come a time when you learned that Mr. Marceca was working on something called the Update Project? A Well, I mean, obviously I have heard about it now from press reports. I would not have been surprised in the least if Craig had put him to work on that. As I have testified earlier, just a minute ago, I don't recall Craig talking to me with specificity about what Tony was doing for him. Q Did you have any knowledge about the need to obtain the previous FBI reports of holdover employees? A Yes. Q Could you describe your knowledge of what you needed to do in that area? A Well, we had learned -- we collectively, Craig and I had learned, that the personnel files of everybody in the Bush administration were gone. They were considered presidential records and they had -- they were gone. And so people that were employed by the Bush White House, is a better way to say it, is in the Executive Office of the President, who had access to the White House, there were hundreds and hundreds of them that had continued access but no files. So the files had to be reconstructed. Q Okay. What was your understanding of what needed to be done in that area? A Unfortunately, it's just what I said. The files needed to be reconstructed. We had to get background information on them, you know, through SF-86; tax checks were run on them and then depending on the cycles involved, we had to get copies of their FBI backgrounds. Q And did you instruct Craig Livingstone to get that done? A Uh-huh. I mean, it was part of his job. Q And do you know how he went about doing that job? A With specificity, no. Q Do you have a general idea of what he did in that job? A Just what I told you. Q Did you know that Mr. Marceca was working on that matter? A Not -- it wouldn't surprise me. I do not recall Craig specifically saying, I have got Tony doing X, Y and Z. But I am sure there were other people working on that project as well. Q Did Mr. Livingstone ever write memos or updates to you on work that was being done in his office? A From time to time, he did. Q Okay. Can you describe if he ever wrote any memos on the Update Project and what was being done on the Update Project? A I don't recall any such memos. I mean, most of my communication was verbal. Q What was your understanding of the extent of holdover employees at the White House? A What do you mean by extent? Q Who was held over at the White House? A Hundreds of people. Q Okay. And what type of employees were those? A All sorts, I mean from A to Z. Q Groundskeepers? A From groundskeepers to -- Q GSA? A -- to telephone operators, to people that worked in the Situation Room, to telegraph operators. You name it, they were there. Q Okay. Do you know if any people in the Communications Office were holdovers? A I presume they were, but I don't know. Q Okay. Dee Dee Myers' office, I am talking about. A Were there holdovers in Dee Dee Myers' office. Q Yes. A I don't know. I can't answer that with specificity. Q Do you have a general understanding of, say, George Stephanopolous and Dee Dee Myers kept on any of Marlin Fitzwater's staff? A I am not splitting hairs with you but when you get into questions when we talk about staff, for example, I don't believe that they did, particularly in sort of a decision-making capability. But whether or not there was in the Communications Office, for example, a specified telephone operator that held over, I don't know. I can't answer that. Q Okay. But aside from maybe a few low-level staff, did you have any -- a general understanding of whether or not people, say, in the Communications Office were new employees or holdover employees? A For the most part, people that worked in the West Wing would be new employees. Q So, say, in the policy offices, West Wing offices, Chief of Staff's office, most of those people would be new employees? A Uh-huh. Q Mr. McLarty didn't hold over any of the Chief of Staff's staff from -- A With the same caveat I just gave you. Q With a secretary or two? A With the same caveat I just gave you, most of the people would be new hires. Q Okay. A Now, if you go to the OEOB, that's not going to be a true statement. But there you have it. Q Okay. Were you aware of the First Lady's Office retaining any of Mrs. Bush's employees? A Well, I mean, were there ushers that carried over? You bet. Were there -- Q I am talking about the First Lady's personal office. A No, I don't believe anybody did. Q Were you ever given any information about what type of lists anyone was supposed to work from to obtain information for passes? A Well, there were, you know, a number of lists, you know, mostly -- they were compiled from the Secret Service and -- there were lists. I don't know how to answer it any better than that. Q What is your knowledge of these lists? A Well, I mean, there's -- there's -- you know, there's a list of people that have passes. There's a list of people that have temporary passes. There's a list of people that have access, list of people who don't have access. I mean, it just goes on, and on, and on and on. Q Do you have any knowledge as to what lists that Craig Livingstone was working off of in working on this Update Project? A No. Q Just so we can be clear, you did have a general understanding that Craig was trying to obtain these files of the holdover employees? A He had to. Q Okay. And you had instructed him to do so? A The short answer is, yes. But that was his job. That's what he was there for. And it was -- it had to be done. Q Did you ever talk to Mr. Bourke at the FBI about obtaining these files, anything Craig was working on in relation to this? A What are we talking about? Craig's stuff? Q Yes. A Yes. I talked to Mr. Bourke almost every day. Okay? Most of what I talked to Mr. Bourke about was what I was doing, which is presidential appointees, PASs and PAs and whatnot. But when, for example, when I first got there, I met with Mr. Bourke and some of his staff and they talked about, and we talked about, how the process worked; what he expected from us, what I expected from him; how it was supposed to work. Mr. Bourke was an excellent public servant. He was very helpful and we had a good working relationship. Most, as I said, of what I talked to him about concerned presidential appointees and PASs, but it also -- we also interfaced from time to time with regard to people who had access to the White House; rarely but some. Q Okay. At or around late 1993, November/December time frame, did Mr. Bourke or anybody from the FBI ever tell you about a large request for -- from the White House Personnel Security Office for files of previous Bush or Reagan employees? A No, did not. Q Did anybody ever mention anything about there had been an unusually large volume of requests of previous reports from the FBI? A Did not. Q Did Craig Livingstone ever tell you anything about files being obtained of Reagan and Bush officials from the FBI? A Well, I mean, if you characterize it in terms of doing what we were doing, I mean, I talked to Craig about that. I mean, that's -- we had to replace these files. We had to rebuild the personnel files on people who had continued access to the White House. Did he -- I mean, did I know that files of inactive people were being requested? I did not. Did he ever discuss that with me? He did not. Ms. Comstock. I am showing the witness CGE 43641 through 42, which is a memo from the White House to the FBI liaison from Bernie Nussbaum. The subject is FBI investigations. It's dated December 20th, 1993, and the subject's name is Billy Ray Dale and the request was for a copy of previous reports. It says, the person named above is being considered for access. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Have you ever seen this request form before? A When these press reports hit, Bernie Nussbaum faxed me a copy of that. And the answer is, until he did that, I had never seen this before. Q Did Mr. Nussbaum talk to you about this form and how it came to be -- previous reports came to be requested? A Huh-uh. He didn't know anything. Q Can you just describe how he came to fax this to you? A When the first press reports hit, Bernie called me and asked me, basically, one question, which was -- Mr. Stroman. Excuse me just one second, Ms. Comstock. About what time frame is this, approximately, just approximately? The Witness. Whenever the first press reports were on this request, which is the Billy Dale request. Mr. Stroman. Right. The Witness. Whenever they first occurred. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q You mean in the past several weeks? A Yes, within the past week or so. Mr. Stroman. All right. The Witness. I mean, within 2 weeks, 3 weeks, whatever. And he simply said, I am being asked questions about this. What do you know about it? I said, I don't know anything about it. And he said, did we ever discuss this? I said, no. He said, I have got this form. I said, Bernie, what in the world are you talking about? He said, I am going to fax it to you, and he did. Okay? And that was the substance of our conversation. And he was wanting to put a statement out, which he subsequently did. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Okay. So prior to these press reports in the past month or so, you had no knowledge that Mr. Dale's file had been requested? A That's correct. Q All right. And prior to the press reports and, I guess, the more recent reports in the past week or so that there were 400-and-apparently-climbing number of files that have been obtained from the FBI of people who were not supposed -- the office -- the White House was not supposed to be getting their files, did you have any knowledge of those 400-plus files being obtained? A I did not. Q Okay. Have you discussed with anyone at the White House since then how this came about? A The only discussions I have had with the White House have been they called and asked -- you know, they called my counsel and asked if I would put a statement out, which I did. Ms. Comstock. I will make this, Mr. Dale's form to the FBI, I will make that Exhibit 7, CGE 43641. [Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 7 was marked for identification.] BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Okay. This is a June 14th, 1996 statement of William Kennedy. Is that the statement you were just referring to, Mr. Kennedy? A Yes. Q Okay. And do you recall who called you from the Counsel's Office? A Sally Paxton. Q Okay. What did Ms. Paxton ask you? A If I would put a statement out. Q Okay. And did you tell her what the statement would say? A Basically, yes. Q Did Ms. Paxton give you any information about any knowledge she had about how these files had been obtained? A She did not. Ms. Comstock. I will make the statement Exhibit 8. It doesn't have a Bates stamp number, but it's a June 14th, 1996 statement of Mr. Kennedy. [Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 8 was marked for identification.] Mr. Stroman. June 14th? Ms. Comstock. June 14th, 1996, which reads: "During my tenure as Associate Counsel for the President, I can state unequivocally that I never obtained, never directed anyone else to obtain, never disseminated or asked anyone else to disseminate any FBI background information for any person for any improper purpose whatsoever. Further, I have no knowledge of any other person associated with the White House of engaging in any improper use of information from FBI reports." That's the end of the statement. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Could you define what you mean by "improper purpose" -- A Misuse. Q -- in that statement? A Misuse. Q Okay. Or improper use of information? A Misuse. Q Did anyone -- while you were at the White House, did anyone ever tell you anything about Craig Livingstone referencing information that was in their background files in a way that they thought might not be appropriate? A No. I don't recall anyone doing so, huh-uh. Q Were you ever aware of him making comments to individuals, I guess maybe in -- not just to the individual directly involved but in the company of numerous individuals, making comments about somebody's background in the company of others? A No, I don't think Craig ever did that. I have no knowledge of it. I don't think he did that. Q This is a Time Magazine article from yesterday, dated June 24th, 1996. It is directing your attention to the second page. A I have never seen this before. Q Would you like an opportunity to look at it? A I am just telling you, you are handing me something I have never seen before. Q Sure. If you would like to take some time to look at it. A Do you want me to read the whole thing? Q Just whatever you would like to look at, Mr. Kennedy. A Rather than me take the time to read this entire article, what questions have you got? Q Okay. In this article, there are three former Clinton staff members who allegedly told Time Magazine that Mr. Livingstone was in the habit of, quote, "insinuating that he had read their security files." The message, they contend, was that Livingstone knew all about their peccadillos but their secrets were safe with him. Did you ever hear about anything like that? A Without having read the article, I am willing to bet you that those people's names are not in this article. Q No, they are not, you are correct. I am just asking you if you have ever heard anything like that from anybody at the White House? A No. Q Thank you. Did you ever discuss with Mr. Livingstone what the proper or improper use of FBI background information was? A The short answer is, yes. I mean, Craig knows, just as I know, that you cannot discuss people's backgrounds, except under the most limited of circumstances. You can't make improper use of them. And I don't believe he did. Q Okay. I think when we may have been previously discussing the background investigations that were done of the new staff at the White House, you said that Mr. Livingstone adjudicated and read through most of those files. A Uh-huh. Q Do you have any knowledge of whether or not Mr. Livingstone read through the files of the holdover people that were coming into his office? A As far as I know, he did. You say the holdover people? Q Yes. A In other words, people that had access to the White House that were there crossing over the administrations? Q Yes. A Yes, I would presume that he did. Q Okay. So in regard to these previous reports that Mr. Livingstone -- that his office was seeking to -- for the replacement files, your understanding was that he would review those files also? A Yes. I mean, that's what he was supposed to do. That was the purpose in getting them. RPTS COLCHICO DCMN GALLACHER Q Okay. Now, you have testified that you did not know anything about these 400-plus files of former Reagan and Bush officials being obtained by the White House. Did you know anything about any files whatsoever being archived of hold -- of any type of holdover employees, regardless of who they were, during your tenure at the White House? A When you use the word "archive," what do you mean? Q Why don't I back up a little. Did you ever talk to Craig Livingstone about archiving any of the files that he had at the vault? A All right. When you talk about archiving, what are you talking about? Q Okay. Well, why don't you explain to me what your understanding is about the archiving of FBI background files. A Well, when you put them in the vault, they are archived. I don't know what you are driving at. I am sorry. I really don't. Q Okay. Do you know anything about any of -- any files ever being removed from the vault and being put elsewhere in any type of White House archives? A From press reports, I have learned that supposedly, and this is only from press reports, when Tony left, someone came, said, we don't need these and sent them to the archives. I don't know any more than that. Solely from press reports. Q Okay. And by "Tony," you are referring to Tony as Mr. Marceca? A Uh-huh. Q While Tony was at the White House, were you aware of any problems in his work while he was at the White House? A No. Q Okay. Mr. Livingstone never alerted you to any concerns or problems that he had with Tony? A I don't recall if he did, no. Q Did anybody else at the White House ever alert you to any concerns or problems that they had with Tony? A No. I don't recall that they did. Q Could you describe the process by which Mr. Livingstone, when he flagged the files for you, that he forwarded to you, how would -- I guess there have been reports, the derogatory information that would be in such files, could you describe how that was presented to you? A Ninety-nine times out of 100, he would put a Post-it by the section of the person's FBI background that he thought I should look at; that was problematical. In other words, he would say, here are problems, and he would put a tag by what he thought revealed that problem. Q And was it your understanding that he would do this also for any of the holdover files that there were problems for? A Well, any problem that he thought needed to -- or rose to the level of my attention, whether it was a new White House access or a holdover, he would handle it basically the same way. Ms. Comstock. Did you want to ask some questions? I am not finished but if you would like to ask some questions. EXAMINATION BY MR. STROMAN: Q My name is Ron Stroman. Hello, Mr. Kennedy. How are you today? A Fine, Ron. How are you? Every day is a holiday. Q I have just a couple of questions. The reconstruction of files, did you have any discussion with anyone in the Bush administration about the process for file reconstruction? A Jane Dannenhauer and Nancy Gemmell, who were employed in that position of the Office of White House Personnel Security, for the Bush administration. Q Do you remember what Jane Dannenhauer said to you or what the general thrust of the conversation was? A Well, they were very nice. They were very professional and they were very helpful. The purpose of talking to them was to reconstruct the procedures. Q Right. A You know, how did they do things; where were things -- I mean, it was as elemental as it could be. Where do these go? How did you all handle things? Q In those conversations with Jane Dannenhauer and Nancy Gemmell, was Craig Livingstone in those conversations? A Uh-huh. Q So the conversations with you, Craig, Jane and Nancy, was it several conversations? A It was a multiplicity of conversations, particularly when we first -- when I first got there. I mean, you know, something -- most of the time Craig would be there. You know, every once in awhile I would be there and he wouldn't, if he was off doing something, or vice versa. But it was trying to find out what was going on. Q Did you think you had a pretty good grasp of the way in which the Bush administration handled file reconstruction? A The short answer is, I think we ultimately got there. I mean, when we first got started, I would say, no, but I mean we finally got comfortable with sort of the procedures we should be following. Q And with regard to your role in reviewing -- well, let me just start with the process for requesting background information. Were you involved at all with the requests for background information? A Well, you have got to do -- you have to do the same thing that I did with Barbara, which is there's two things going on in my life, one of which is White House access. The other is Presidential appointees. Q Right. A I was very much involved in requesting backgrounds on Presidential appointees. Craig's office did White House folks. Q All right. Other than Craig Livingstone, did you have any discussions with anyone else in the current administration regarding the manner in which file reconstruction would take place? A I don't recall doing so, other than, you know, from time to time, you know, telling Bernie, for example, or, you know, maybe Vince Foster, after his death Joel Klein, you know, that we were working on things, we were making progress, we were having problems but nothing -- you know, I don't recall ever discussing the details of how that process worked with anybody other than Craig. Q Did you ever have an opportunity -- were you ever made aware of the fact that there were, that there were files being requested -- were you ever made aware, while you were there working in the White House, that there were files being requested on people who no longer were there from past Bush and Reagan administrations? A That files were being requested by people who had worked -- Q Yes. A Yes. Of course, I knew that. That was sort of the holdover project. Q Yes. A Right. Q Were you ever made aware of the fact that there were files being requested on people who were no longer -- who were not simply holdovers? A No. I mean, I did not know that that was happening. Q And the first time you found out that was happening was when? A Press reports 2 weeks ago, whenever this first started. Q Let me just -- you have talked about this but let me just go back for a moment to the Nussbaum -- the fax that you received from Mr. Nussbaum. Again, can you just run through the circumstances under which you received that fax? A Bernie wanted to put a statement out, because -- as I understand it, now, I wasn't there, but the press was after him. And he wanted to be sure that his statement was accurate. Of course, he knew that I was in the counsel's office in this process. And so he called to say, these are the press reports. There's a form with my name on it, you know. What's the story? I said, I have no idea. He said, did we ever discuss this? I said, no. He said, what can you tell me about this form? And I said, Bernie, I don't have it. You know, I can't answer questions about it. He said, I am going to send it to you. And so he put a statement out, and that's basically it and he subsequently put a statement out. I have never seen it but press reports tell me. Q Do you know how Mr. Nussbaum had a copy of that form? A I do not. Q You did not ask him how he got it -- he had a copy of it? A No reason to. Q All right. Your statement that you made, you have testified that you got a call from Sally Paxton. A I testified that my counsel did. Q I am sorry. Your counsel got a call from Sally Paxton. And have you had any discussions with Sally Paxton directly about your statement? Mr. Coffield. Let me just clarify this. Mr. Stroman. Sure. Mr. Coffield. The conversations regarding his statement were between me and Sally Paxton. Mr. Stroman. Okay. BY MR. STROMAN: Q I think you have testified that you knew generally what Mr. Marceca was doing but you did not know specifically what he was working on with Mr. Livingstone. Is that accurate? A Yes. I mean, he was generally there to work in that office and help that office function. That's what he was detailed to do. What he did in that process, I don't know. Q Okay. So is it your -- did you ever have any discussions with Mr. Marceca about the work that he was doing in that office, that you can remember? A On a substantive basis, no. I mean, you know, Tony would bring pieces of paper up. I mean, he was working in that office, you know, and I would say stuff, like, Tony, how are you doing? How is it going? Fine. But on a substantive basis, no. Q If there were problems with specific background -- if, say, Mr. Livingstone had spotted a problem in somebody's background file, he would then forward that file to you? A He would usually bring it to me or else he would call and say, I need to talk to you, and sometimes I would go down there. It depends on what was going on. Q And what would you do? A Look at whatever the information was and make a decision about what to do. Q When you say "look," "make a decision about what to do," what were the options that you had? A Well, unfortunately, that's a complex -- there's not an easy answer to that. It depends on the substance of the information, where that person was employed, what that person was doing, what that person's status was. I couldn't give you, Ron, an easy answer to that. Q All right. That's fine. Were there ever times when problems came up that you needed to talk with someone else to get what you thought was a resolution to that problem? A Again, I want to restrict this answer just to White House access. Q Right. A Every once in awhile a problem would come up where there was no clear answer about what to do, and I would discuss it with my superiors in the counsel's office. And every once in awhile, the conclusion would be reached that I should go and discuss these problems with that person's superior. So that happened from time to time. Mr. Stroman. Barbara, that's all the questions I have. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Okay. In the past month or so, has Craig Livingstone contacted you at all about this matter? A He has not. Q Showing the witness a 4-page statement of Mr. Anthony Marceca, and directing your attention to, I guess it's paragraph number 5, which is on page 2, Mr. Marceca writes, it was my understanding that every person on the lists from which I was working was properly included on the lists because they had a legitimate need for access to the White House complex. Do you have any knowledge who gave him -- Mr. Marceca that information? A What information? Q That the lists that he was working off of were all of people who had a legitimate need for access to the White House complex. A No. Q All right. Did you ever instruct Craig on where to get lists or anything about lists, or where he might find any lists? A I mean, the short answer is, no. I mean, the -- the gatekeeper over there getting in the building is the Secret Service. So that's where presumably lists come from. Q So this was Craig's job to determine what were the appropriate lists to use on this project? A Say that again? Q Was it Craig's job to determine what were the appropriate lists to use on this project? A Yes. I mean, if you read up higher in his -- in paragraph 4 of his statement, page 2, it says, the employee who is retiring showed me the various lists for names for which personnel security files needed to be created, and he goes on to say, I understood these computerized lists come from the United States Secret Service. Q Okay. Do you know what the various lists that he was working from were? Did you ever see any of the lists when you were down in the office? A Well, yeah, I have seen them. I mean, they are huge computer printouts, huge. And as I said, there's like, as I understand it, a bunch of them. I mean, there's, you know, people that have daily access, people that have passes, temporary passes, inactives, all this kind of stuff. Q Okay. And, to your knowledge, was Mr. Marceca reading through these previous reports that he was obtaining? A Again, I don't know. I cannot testify with precision about what Tony did on a day-to-day basis. I just don't know. Q I know you have testified that Mr. Livingstone did not tell you about these files. But could you tell us if Mr. Livingstone had come to you when he learned that these files, or if anyone at the White House under you was handling these files had come to you to tell you that they had, for whatever reason, obtained FBI background files of people who were not working at the White House, could you tell us what you would have told them to do? A Well, I mean, I would have told them, obviously, to stop that immediately. As for -- I would have had to seek guidance as to the proper disposition of these backgrounds that had been, I don't know what the proper term is, had been requested but shouldn't have been, because these people had no need for access. Remember, these are copies. These are not -- a copy of each of these backgrounds resides at the FBI. Q I understand. A I am sure you do. So the question would be, do you return them to the FBI or do you dispose of them in another way, such as, you know, making it a part of the Presidential Archives or what? I would have had to seek guidance on that but I would have stopped it immediately. Q Did you ever have occasion, while you were at the White House, to have to send back a file that had been inadvertently requested for someone who was not going to be at the White House? A There were, for example -- I am going to shift over to the -- we had people that placed themselves in contention and were selected for a Presidential appointment and then dropped out of the process. Q Uh-huh. A In cases where a background had already been prepared and come in on them. They just decided they didn't want to do the job or something came up, family emergency or something. Okay? Q Yes. A And those files were sent down to Presidential Archives. Okay? Q But those were of people who you were considering for some position at least at some point? A That's correct. Q All right. And people like Marlin Fitzwater or James Baker were not among any of those Presidential appointment people? A No. Q You had mentioned when you were talking with Mr. Stroman that sometimes Tony would bring up some type of papers to you. Do you recall what kind of -- what he would be bringing to you? Were they things -- do you recall anything that he brought to you on the Update Project? A Huh-uh. I don't think he ever brought me anything on that. But, you know, if -- if anything had to come out of that office, I mean, they would -- employees would come up. Tony was sometimes one of them. I simply don't recall any specifics about that, but I was trying to give an accurate answer to Ron's question. Q Okay. Do you have any knowledge of how the document I have identified as Exhibit 7, which was the request for Mr. Dale's previous FBI reports, and I will state for the record, we -- apparently there were 11 reports and letters and memos attached to this, that the White House had copies of. Do you have any knowledge of how these documents came to the attention of the counsel's office in the past year or so? A I have no knowledge of that. Q Okay. Have you had -- you have not had any discussions with anybody about where these were at any point in the process -- A No. Q -- in the past year or two? A No. Q Have you discussed this matter with anybody else at the White House or any former employees other than Mr. Nussbaum? A I have not. Q Did you know who Lisa Wetzl was? A Lisa Wetzl was an employee in the Office of White House Personnel Security. Q Do you have an understanding of what she did in that office? A Not any more than I know what Tony did. I mean, she worked in the office. She worked in the process. What she did precisely every day, I cannot tell you. Q All right. Do you know who Mari Anderson is? A She is a former employee, and Lisa may be a former employee for all I know, but she worked in the White House Office of Personnel Security. Q Okay. Do you have any knowledge of what she worked on? A No. Same answer. Q And both Lisa and Mari were under Craig and reported to Craig? A That's correct. Q And do you know who George Saunders is? A George Saunders is a retired FBI agent who worked as a consultant to the White House on security matters. Q Could you describe what he did as a consultant? A If a problem, for example, surfaced in a person's background and we felt like it needed further investigation, we would employ George to conduct an interview of that employee, to flesh out that allegation, whatever it might be. In addition in the early negotiation, George assisted us in procedures. You know, he helped us flesh out the procedures we should be following. That's basically it. Q Do you have any knowledge of whether or not he worked on this Update Project? A I do not. I don't believe he did but I have no knowledge of it. Q I just wanted to return, just a little briefly, generally to the Travel Office matter. A Oh, boy. Q Do you recall Craig Livingstone ever saying anything to you about he didn't think the FBI should be brought into dealing with the Travel Office? A No. Q All right. Did he ever participate in any meetings with you and Mr. Foster where he made any recommendations regarding the Travel Office? A No, not that I recall. Q During the time frame of the fall of 1993 into the winter and spring of 1994, do you recall that there were delays in obtaining White House passes for individuals, the new employees at the White House? A When you say, "delays" -- Q Do you recall there being any problems in relation to obtaining passes for White House employees? A There were lots of allegations hurled around at that time about the pass process. Do I recall that? Yes, I do. Q And did Mr. McLarty ever talk to you about any of these matters? A When you say, "these matters," can you be more specific? Q About how the pass process was being handled in your office. A The short answer is, I don't recall him doing so. You know, he may have. He may have met with Bernie and communicated, you know, through Bernie. I simply can't recall. I don't remember ever meeting directly with Mack on this subject. Q Did Mr. McLarty ever talk to you generally about how the Office of Personnel Security was operating or handling security and background matters? A Well, when this -- when this -- these allegations started appearing about the pass process, there were inquiries from the Chief of Staff's office about, you know, how the process was operating and whether it was operating properly and how could it operate faster. I don't recall any of them coming from Mack McLarty. Q Okay. But there was somebody from the Chief of Staff's office who made an inquiry to you? A The short answer is, we talked to -- we reassured them the process was working as it was supposed to. I simply can't remember who we talked to. I am sorry. I simply can't remember the person's name. It could have been Bill Burton or somebody working for Bill Burton who I think was around at this point in time. Q Okay. I am showing the witness an August 19, 1993, letter to Congressman Frank Wolf from Mack McLarty. A Oh, Congressman Wolf, yes. Q And the beginning of that letter it says, "To our knowledge, there have been no material changes in security procedures at the White House when compared to those of previous administrations. The security function as to personnel rests primarily with the Office of White House Personnel Security, which is under the direction of the Office of the Counsel to the President." Does that refresh your recollection as to whether or not you talked to anybody in Mr. McLarty's office regarding how your office was functioning in general? A I have told you that we did. I can't remember who. Okay? I mean, I don't remember discussing this directly with Mack McLarty, period. Q Okay. Another series of letters, this is from October 27th, another letter to Congressman Wolf from Mr. McLarty. A Oh, yes. Q And then a February 24th, 1994, letter, and essentially in all of these letters they do say that procedures are being handled in a timely manner. Do you recall giving -- did you ever give that information to anybody in Mr. McLarty's office? A Give what information? Q That these procedures were being -- security clearances were being handled in a timely manner? A I mean, that's what was happening. Q Okay. And do you recall any discussions you had with Mr. McLarty about -- A I stand by my previous testimony. I don't remember. It's possible but I do not remember discussing this directly with Mr. McLarty. I definitely discussed it with someone in the Chief of Staff's office. Ms. Comstock. Okay. I will make these three letters Exhibit 9. [Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 9 was marked for identification.] BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q And how long have you known Mr. McLarty? A A pretty good while. Q Is he a social acquaintance of yours from Little Rock? A That would be a fair way of putting it, yes. Q Have you known him for over 10 years? A Probably. Q Okay. Did you frequently talk with him when you were at the White House just in general, not particularly about this matter but in general? A No. Q And in -- I believe it was in March of 1994, you were relieved of your duties in the area of White House passes; is that correct? A Uh-huh, shifted to other areas. Q And did Mr. McLarty talk to you about that at that time? A He did not. Q Did anybody in the counsel's office talk with you about that? A Lloyd Cutler. Q Okay. And what did Mr. Cutler tell you? A Because of the allegations that had been made regarding nanny taxes and whatnot, that they felt it was best if I took a lower profile function in the counsel's office. Q Okay. Did you ever talk to him at that time about anything having to do with Craig Livingstone being in that office and any problems that Mr. Livingstone had in handling the work load at that time in the March '94, spring '94 time frame? A That office was constantly swamped, period. And so I made sure that they were aware that the office had more work than it could do at that point in time. Q Were you aware of Mr. Cutler making any efforts to find out about how the Office of Personnel Security was operating at that time and who was in charge of things and how things were functioning? A He didn't ask me. I have no knowledge of that. You'd have to ask him. Q Who took over those duties after you were relieved of them? A Who took over what duties? Q Overseeing the Office of Personnel Security? A Beth Nolan. Q And did you meet with Ms. Nolan and explain to her this office? A Yes. Yes. Q And were you -- did Ms. Nolan ever tell you about any problems that she had with Mr. Livingstone or the operations of that office during the time she was overseeing it? A Not that I recall with specificity, huh-uh. Q Do you have any general recollections of any problems that she may have raised with you? A The one thing that I told her is that the office was swamped; I mean, that they were drowning in paper down there and that she had to be assisting, she had to help fight the bureaucratic battles necessary to get the people in there to get the job done. Q And are you aware of additional staff being put in that office at that time? A At that point in time, I quit overseeing that office in any way, shape, or form so I can't answer that. I don't know. Q Okay. Were you and Ms. Nolan office mates in the same suite? A Uh-huh. Q Okay. That is the extent of your knowledge of what went on in that office? A Yeah. I mean, I basically started doing other things. Q I am showing the witness BFF 1067 through 1068. Do you recognize that handwriting? A No, I do not. Q Okay. Do you know who Guy Caputo is? A No, I do not. Q Or Mr. McGaw? A I think Mr. McGaw at one point he was employed by the Secret Service. He is doing something else. He may be at Treasury maybe. I just don't know. Q Okay. For the record, these are handwritten notes that were provided by Bobbie Faye Ferguson who worked with Harry Thomason at the White House in the spring of 1993. Were you ever aware of Craig Livingstone meeting with Harry Thomason about anything having to do with the Secret Service? A No. Q Were you aware of Harry Thomason handling any issues relating to the Secret Service? A No. Q Or the military office? A No. Q Were you aware of any complaints that anyone in the First Family made about Director McGaw or Deputy Director Guy Caputo of the Secret Service? A No. I have seen press reports, you know, reporting on the rumors of unhappiness with the Secret Service, but I have no knowledge of the accuracy of those reports. Ms. Comstock. I will make this Exhibit 10. [Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 10 was marked for identification.] Ms. Comstock. This is CGE 029184, which are handwritten notes from Mr. Watkins of April 16th, 1993. The top of them reads, Bruce and Harry Thomason, and then discusses conversations with Hillary, conversations with Bruce. [Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 11 was marked for identification.] BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q First of all, do you recognize that handwriting as Mr. Watkins'? A No. Q Do you know who a Bob Coy is? A No. Q From California? A I do not. Q Did you have any knowledge of any conversations that Bruce Lindsey or Harry Thomason had about any matters relating to the Secret Service? A No. Q Were you aware of any discussions by anybody at the White House of any Secret Service agents leaking information or talking to Bob Woodward? A No. Q Okay. Is anything on those handwritten notes at all familiar to you? A In what regard? Q On topics that you may have discussed at the White House with Mr. Watkins or Mr. Thomason or Mr. Lindsey or the President or the First Lady? A Well, there's this -- it says, Charter Press, be taking kickbacks, I mean, that could relate to the Travel Office but -- 5 percent kickback, that could relate to the Travel Office, but apart from that I don't recognize any of these other references. Q Do you recall the kickback allegation being made in relation to the Travel Office? A I don't recall a specific allegation being made. I remember, as I previously testified, that Harry Thomason thought the office was being operated in a funny way. Q And he had mentioned kickbacks to you? A He did not mention kickbacks to me specifically, no. I don't recall him doing so. Ms. Comstock. Okay. I believe that is all I have. Thank you, Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Coffield. Thank you. The Witness. You are quite welcome. [Whereupon, at 11:35 a.m., the deposition was concluded.] CONTENTS EXHIBIT NO. PAGE Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.............................. 33 Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.............................. 35 Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 3 was marked for identification.............................. 36 Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 4 was marked for identification.............................. 39 Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 5 was marked for identification.............................. 39 Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 6 was marked for identification.............................. 44 Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 7 was marked for identification.............................. 54 Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 8 was marked for identification.............................. 54 Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 9 was marked for identification.............................. 77 Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 10 was marked for identification.............................. 81 Kennedy Deposition Exhibit No. 11 was marked for identification.............................. 81
