COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES WASHINGTON, D.C. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x : In the matter of: : : WHITE HOUSE TRAVEL : DEPOSITION OF : DAVID CRAIG LIVINGSTONE : : - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x Friday, June 14, 1996 Washington, D.C. The deposition in the above matter was held in Room 2203, Rayburn House Office Building, commencing at 4:15 p.m. Appearances: Staff Present for the Government Reform and Oversight Committee: Barbara Comstock, Investigative Counsel; Kristi Remington, Investigator; Robin Butler, Office Manager; David Schooler, Minority Chief Counsel; and Donald Goldberg, Assistant to Minority Counsel. For DAVID CRAIG LIVINGSTONE: RANDALL J. TURK, ESQ. and DAVID S. COHEN, ESQ. Miller, Cassidy, Larroca & Lewin, LLP 2555 M. Street, N.W. Washington, D. C. 20037-1302 Ms. Comstock. We are on the record this afternoon for the deposition of Craig Livingstone which will be administered under oath. I would like to identify the people in the room. My name Barbara Comstock, I am Majority Legislative Counsel; Committee Kristi Remington, Counsel in the office; Don Goldberg is staff member for the Minority; and Dave Schooler is here today, also. Robin, go ahead and swear the witness in. THEREUPON, DAVID CRAIG LIVINGSTONE, a witness, was called for examination by Counsel, and after having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: Ms. Comstock. I think we have previously gone through the outlines of the investigation so I will just move into questioning. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Could you describe the responsibilities that you had in your position regarding background investigations in the obtaining of FBI files? A That I have currently at the White House? Q That you had in 1993, to the present time. A I would review background investigations when they were sent back to the White House. Q Could we start at the beginning because obviously you had to get them before reviewing them; could we start at the beginning the process? Mr. Turk. Would it be easier, maybe you might be able to discuss the testimony a little more if rather than just asking Mr. Livingstone an open-ended question about what he is here to testify about if you could maybe direct the questioning to specific types of activities. Ms. Comstock. Well, I would like to find out what his duties were in this entire area so we can then determine what was going on in the bigger picture as well as some of the other particular items we are interested in. The Witness. Primarily I would review background investigations as it relates to the questioning about background investigations, I would review them upon their return from the FBI. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q And how would they be obtained from the FBI? A Someone in my office would initiate the request. Q Could you tell us who everyone in your office was in 1993, from the time it started in January throughout the year in 1993? Mr. Turk. And the question is? Ms. Comstock. Who worked in Mr. Livingstone's office? Mr. Turk. Everyone? Ms. Comstock. Yes. Mr. Turk. Starting from when you first arrived. The Witness. I wouldn't be able to give the names of people who worked on payrolls, we had interns and volunteers; I won't be able to remember all of them. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Let's go through who you remember first? A Myself, of course. Jane Dannenour, she was a -- Mr. Turk. Just give the list of names, that is what she has asked for now. The Witness. Of everyone that's been there in 1993? Ms. Comstock. Yes. The Witness. Jane Dannenour, Nancy Gemmell, Mari Anderson, Lisa Wetzl. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q And when did Lisa join the office? A I am not positive. I think -- I am not positive. Q Jane was there when you started; correct? A Correct. Q And she stayed for approximately a month or two? A I think for a month, month and a half. Q And Nancy Gemmell was there when you started? A Yes, ma'am. Q And she was there through mid-August; is that correct? A I am not positive, but that sounds close. Q And Mari Anderson, was she there when you first started? A No, I hired her. She came sometime after me. Q Do you have -- she was there in 1993 then? A From most of the time that I was there. Q Would she have been there by August 1993? A I believe she was. I am sorry. Do you mean by or still there? Q Was she there by August 1993? A Oh, yes, absolutely. Q Lisa Wetzl, was she there by the summer of 1993? A I believe she was there, yeah. Q And you hired Mari Anderson and Lisa Wetzl? A Mari it is Mari, it is spelled with an "I." I hired Mari, yes, sorry. Q How did you hire Mari? Do you know how you found out about her? A Yes, she worked for me at the Inaugural Committee. Q She worked on the campaign? A She did. Q And what was her position? A I am not positive. We didn't work together, she worked in Little Rock, to the best of my understanding. Q And Lisa Wetzl? A Lisa Wetzl was an intern for me first and that is why I wasn't positive when she came on board as a hiree. Q Did they start out in January '93 as an intern? A I don't think so. I think in the spring -- well, I am just not positive. Sometime in 1993, but like I said, we can find out. Q Why don't we continue with other people that were in the office. A Anthony Marceca. Q I think we will return to him, so why don't we go through the list. A I think the next personnel person would be Ed Hughes. Q And who was he? A He worked for me as an intern, then we hired him. Q And where did he come from? A Like I said, he was an intern. I didn't know him prior to being an intern. Q Had you worked on the Inaugural Campaign Committee? A I don't believe so. Q Do you know how you learned about him? A He came to work for he as an intern in my office. Q Do you know when he came to work for you? A I believe, 1994. Q Okay. Was there a George Saunders in the office? A Yes. Q And he was held over from the previous administration? A Well, he is not an employee. He is a contractor. I don't think he would be considered a holdover. Q He had been at the White House as a contractor -- A Yes, ma'am, many years. Q And he is still there now? A He is? Q And other people who were in the office? A I believe the only other person on payroll would have been Johnathan Denbo. Q How do you spell that? A D-E-N-B-O. Q Where did he come from? A He was an intern that worked for me. Q Do you know when he started as an intern? A I think 1994, but I am not positive. Q Anybody else? A I had some interns that I can remember their names. Q Why don't we go through those. A Melissa Tash. Q Is that T-A-S-H? A Yes, ma'am. Q She was an intern? A Yes, intern/volunteer. I don't remember what her status was, she may have worked there as a volunteer. Q She was never on the payroll? A No. Q Do you know where she is now? A She is still in Washington. Q Is she working in the administration anywhere? A No. Samantha Ziskind. Z-I-S-K-I-N-D. She was an intern, and she was from California somewhere. Q Do you want to continue? A I am trying to think. There were other interns of which I can document, but I don't remember all of their names or last names, that type of thing, but several. Q Do you have records of who the interns were who were in the office? A The intern office would. Q How did the intern office keep records -- Mr. Turk. If you know. The Witness. I have been contacted in the past about interns, and I have referred them to the Intern Office and they have been able to locate when people work, so that leads me to believe they have records. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Do those records indicate in what office they worked? A I don't know. Q Are there I other interns whose names you recall? A Not right at the moment, but it would be easy to find, for us to find for you. Q Are these the individuals who then worked -- who assisted you in your duties in the Office of Personnel Security? A Yes. Q This is Personnel Security; is that right? A Yes, ma'am. Q So you are responsible for supervising these interns? A No. Mari Anderson and Lisa Wetzl, and now Ed Hughes supervise the interns. Q Ed Hughes is currently in your office? A Yes, ma'am. Q Do you know where Lisa Wetzl is now? A She lives in Virginia -- northern Virginia. Q Is she working in the Army? A She works in the Secretary of the Army's office. Q That would be Joe Reeder? A I don't think that is his name, but I am not sure. It doesn't sound right. Q And you Mari Anderson, Lisa Wetzl and now Ed Hughes, all reported to you? A Yes. Q So you were -- the interns were under your supervision as well as Mari Anderson and Lisa Wetzel and Ed Hughes; is that correct? Mr. Turk. I am going to have to object to -- it sounds to me like you might be trying to argue with the witness. You asked Mr. Livingstone if he supervised interns, I think he said no, that Mari Anderson, Lisa Wetzel and Ed Hughes supervised them. I think you asked if Mari Anderson, Lisa Wetzl and Ed Hughes reported to Mr. Livingstone. I think that much is -- Ms. Comstock. Do you want to -- did they report to you? Mr. Turk. Did Mari Anderson, Lisa Wetzl and Ed Hughes -- Ms. Comstock. -- report to you? The Witness. Yes. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Did they report to you on the matter of the interns and what work they were doing? A Occasionally. Q Was part of their job responsibilities to report to you on what people they were supervising were doing? A I think in terms of if there were problems or there were elements of confusion, they needed my assistance in working with the interns, but not in the course of day-to-day events, no. Q Could you describe the physical -- give a physical description of your office? A In 1993? Q Yes. A In 1993, it is a room about half this size. Q And was your office separate within that room or was it all part of one office? A In 1993, it was one large room. Q And in 1993, Ms. Anderson as Ms. Wetzl worked in that office also? A Yes ma'am. Q As your assistants? A Yes ma'am. Q They were in that one room with you? A Yes, ma'am. Q Was George Saunders also in that room? A No, ma'am. Q Where was George Saunders? A He had an office in 1993, I believe it was on the first floor -- excuse me, on the ground floor. Q And where would the interns work when they came in? A In that office or in the vault. Q Okay. And the vault was attached to your office? A Yes, ma'am. Q Could you describe the vault for us? A A description of the room would be -- Mr. Turk. The vault, I think. The Witness. The description of the room, which the vault is a room, you could describe it as a room. It is a stand-alone vault which you can physically walk into and stand up, of which two to three people can work comfortably inside, to give you an idea of how big it is. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Can you describe how the vault was maintained? A I am sorry? Q Was it open during the day, the vault? A It would be open when we were -- one of us, Mari or Ed, Johnathan would be in the office. Q And if you were not -- if either -- if any of the four of you were present in the office, the vault would be open? A Yes, ma'am. Q And could you describe what procedures you used for recording who entered or exited the vault? A We had no procedures for recording entrance and exit for the vault. Q So the vault would be open if any of the four of you were there; is that correct? A Yes, ma'am. Q Then you would also -- you would sometimes have interns working in there also? A Yes, ma'am. Q Now, when the vault -- if interns were in the vault, did that require one of the four of you being in the vault with them? A No, ma'am. Q So interns could be in the vault alone? A That is correct. Q Do you know when you got your security clearance in 1993? A I believe March it was completed. Q It was completed. Was that for the security clearance as well as your pass or -- A At that time the White House considered the completion of the BI and issuance of the permit pass, which I did not receive until later, to be your security clearance. Q Do you know -- in March of 1993, did you receive a permanent pass? A No, I don't believe I got my permanent pass until October of 1993, or thereabouts. Q So in March of 1993 you only had a temporary pass? A Yes, ma'am. Q Do you know who participated in your vetting? A Mr. Kennedy, Bill Kennedy. Q Do you recall if Mr. Kennedy had any problems with any matters in your background? A Yes, he did discuss some issues with me. Q Could you describe what those were? A My drug use, and he basically gave me what he called a "Come to Jesus" opportunity to talk to him about any issues in my life that he should be aware of. And I related to him what situations in my life that I considered less than favorable and I wanted him to be aware of them. Q Could you describe what those were? A Yes. When I was in college I worked at the Sears store. I think this is in 1981 or '2. I worked as a sales clerk and I was brought in by the supervisor to discuss, as I recall it, an improper exchange of an item which I had purchased. I believe the issue was I was supposed to go to the supervisor since I had purchased it myself, and the discussion was they didn't think that was -- I had followed proper procedures, and I was let go. Q Any other matters? A I also told them I was at another job where I was a contract employee where I was asked about my education. The woman I had worked for had thought I had gone to a particular school, and because I was engaged in conversation with her daughter and someone who worked at the company, she questioned me about it and checked my file and discovered I had not gone to that school. I did not tell her I went to the school to get employment there, nor did I put that on an application with her, but she thought the fact I would bring it up in a conversation like that was incredible, and did not renew my contract. When I discussed that issue with her prior to my employment at the White House, she asked me if I learned my lesson and if I had misrepresented my education to anyone else since then, and I said, no? And she said she considered the matter resolved. And from what I understand from Mr. Kennedy, he said that they had mentioned it in the FBI, but -- or someone had mentioned it in the FBI, considered I did good work and said it was an anomaly. And I wanted to be as forthright as I could with Mr. Kennedy about it, so I did talk to him about it before he hired me. Q You had mentioned your drug use to Mr. Kennedy, or he had talked to you before about it? I am sorry, which was it? A During the course of my FBI interview, the FBI investigator asked me about drug use and asked me if I had used drugs within the last 5 years, if I remember the question right. And I had said, no. And he said, you understand that the White House wants to know if you had ever used drugs? So I said the answer to that would be that I had used different types of drugs up until about 1985, as I recall answering the question. Q Did Mr. Kennedy talk to you about looking for other kinds of work in the context of this conversation that you had with him in the White House? A I am sorry, I don't understand the question. Q In this conversation that you had with Mr. Kennedy, did he raise the issue of working in another capacity at the White House besides the job in this Office of Personnel Security? A No. Q Did there come a time when you were asked to work on -- I guess you did, on backgrounds or security clearances of others at the White House? The Reporter. Excuse me, I need an audible response. The Witness. I didn't know she was finished. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Did there come a time when you were asked to work on background and security clearances? A Yes. Q Do you recall when you began working on those types of things? A No, not the specific day, sometime in 1993. Q Do you know if it was before or after your background was completed when you had your security clearance? A I believe it was after. Q Do you know if anyone else at the White House weighed in on your being hired or not for your position in personnel security? A What exactly do you mean by "weighed in"? Q If anyone recommended you or wanted you in that position? A I believe the first person that told me about the job was Ms. Christine Varney. Q Do you know if anybody else at the White House had commented favorably or unfavorably about your having that position? A No. Q Was this a position you had wanted to get at the White House or is this the position you sought at the White House? A No, I don't think I specifically wanted this job. Q Did you discuss that with Mr. Kennedy, about looking for other opportunities in the White House? A I don't recall. Mr. Turk. I just would like to note for the record that a lot of this was covered in Mr. Livingstone's last deposition by the committee and it is 5 o'clock. I told you before you began that we need to leave by 6:30. You can choose to use that time however you choose, but if you spend the time covering issues you have already covered before, I don't intend to come back because you spent the time that way. So I would urge you, and I would tell you also that Ms. Olson told me you would not be re-covering material that you covered. Ms. Comstock. I don't think we have re-covered too much additional material here, and I will try to not cover previous material. If you want to bring that to my attention as we go through, I don't think we have replowed too much ground here, but I will note, though, we were not informed that the deposition -- the witness needed to leave by 6:30 today, and that probably will be a restriction on our time, but I will keep to new material here. Mr. Turk. I think you will find if you talk to Ms. Olson, who I spoke with, that she indicated that the deposition would go somewhere between 45 minutes and an hour and a half. And she indicated when I told her we had plans for the evening, she said she did, too, and it would be a very short deposition. So I think 2 hours is ample opportunity when you have already deposed this witness. Ms. Comstock. I believe we have had some -- there were some different answers prior to -- I think Mr. Livingstone had indicated before he really didn't work with anybody in his office and I think we needed to go through the list of the people who were in the office that we didn't previously know about. Mr. Turk. Do you have that -- do have his deposition? I will state for the record, that is not my record of his deposition. Ms. Comstock. We had not -- at any rate, we had not gone through all of these people who were in the office. I believe in terms of the Travel Office and what we were discussing at that time and not knowing about the issues that we are discussing today, those people weren't necessarily at all relevant to our knowledge of any of these matters at that time. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Can you tell me your knowledge of when Mari Anderson, Lisa Wetzl and Ed Hughes obtained their security clearances? A I can't off the top of my head, no, but we will have a record of that. Q Do you know if they did have security clearances? A Yes, ma'am. Q And how about these volunteers, do you know what security clearances they were provided with? A No, they did not have security clearances. Q None of these volunteers had security clearances? A Yes, ma'am, that is correct. Q How were you provided with these volunteers, where do you know where they came from? A The volunteers were people that I knew, as I recall, because of the sensitivity of the information in our office. The interns were provided by the Intern Office, usually. Sometimes I would select an intern if I knew them and they were interested in working for me. Q And moving to the -- what has been identified as Project Update, were you doing anything in this Project Update prior to -- or if you can give us a starting date of when the Project Update began? A I can't. Q Can you give us an -- was it sometime in 1993? A I believe that is correct. Q Could you tell us who Anthony Marceca is? A He worked for me as a detailee in 1993 and 1994. Q And did he begin in mid-August? A I believe that is correct. Q Can you tell us how you knew -- is it Mr. Marceca, is that the correct pronunciation? A Marceca. Q Could you tell me when you first met Mr. Marceca? A I think I first met Mr. Marceca in 1994, the Gary Hart campaign. Q Could you describe your knowledge of any of his past political connections -- Mr. Turk. Could you describe political connections? Ms. Comstock. Any campaigns he worked on that you know of, or any office-holders that he worked for? The Witness. I know he worked on the Gary Hart campaign. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Do you know what his position was there? A Advance man, I believe. Q Did you work on advance with him? A On occasion. Q Do you know of any other campaigns or office-holders that he worked for? A He worked on the "Al Gore for President" campaign. Q And did you work on that campaign also? A Yes, I did. Q And at this time was he also in the military? A I don't recall. Q Do you know of any other office-holders or campaigns he worked for? A I know that he worked on the Hill for investigative committees. Q So did you keep in touch with Mr. Marceca from 1994 forward? A Keep many touch, meaning, hi, how are you, that kind of thing? Q Yes. A Infrequently. Q Did he work at all in the Clinton-Gore campaign or assist or volunteer in any way? A In 1992? Q Yes. A I don't recall working with him on anything in the campaign. I may have done -- he may have done some stuff in the Inaugural Committee, but I don't really recall the campaign. Q You think he did assist or volunteer in the Inaugural? A I seem to have a vague recollection of him. Q Could you explain the process by which you sought out Mr. Marceca to work at the White House? A I didn't seek him out. Q Do you know who did? A He said he wanted to work at the White House. Q Do you know who he told that to? A He told that to me. Q Do you recall when he told you that? A No. Q Did he tell you that during the Inaugural or during the early days of the administration? A I don't know. I know the year. It was in 1993 sometime, I am sure. Q And what did you tell him? A I don't recall my specific response. Q Could you describe how it came about that he did come to the White House as a detailee? A Yes, ma'am. I responded to Mr. Clinger's subpoena and sent over the documents to counsel yesterday, and there are letters requesting -- he sent a letter, I believe to Mr. Kennedy, and Mr. Kennedy sent a letter to the Army. And the Army sent a letter back to Mr. Kennedy. Something along those lines, maybe not exactly. Q So Mr. Kennedy sent a letter specifically requesting Mr. Marceca to come to the White House? A On my recommendation, yes, ma'am. Q What were Mr. Marceca's duties at the White House? Why don't I back up. When he came to the White House, did he know what he would be working on? A I am not sure, I can't recall. Q I apologize, apparently you gave the material to the White House yesterday and we have been calling them today to try to get ahold of it. And they did not provide it to us. I apologize we can't have the documents here. I will not hold you accountable for -- A It is probably my fault. Q -- exact recommendations here of what the letters are maybe to the best of your recollection and understanding, that we don't have them present here and maybe we could further clarify them in the future. Did this letter that Mr. Marceca sent to Bill Kennedy -- to your recollection -- and Bill Kennedy sent a letter to the Army and the Army sent the letter back to Bill Kennedy, did that get the process completed? A Yeah, if I could amend that. I don't think Mr. Marceca sent a letter to Mr. Kennedy, I think it started with Mr. Kennedy sending a letter. Mr. Marceca talked to me and we talked about general ways that he might be available to assist the office. And I presented that to Mr. Kennedy at some point, and I don't recall the times. I am sure there are big gaps in there before everybody got together. Eventually he met with Mr. Kennedy, and Mr. Kennedy interviewed him separately from me. And then I think he wrote the letter. Q Mr. Kennedy did interview Mr. Marceca? A Yes. Q And do you know what clearances Mr. Marceca had at the time? A I believe he had top secret clearance, if I recall. Q And when he questions was there a specific project he was going to work on, do you know what was requested of him? A I believe in the beginning we had hoped he would help us out with -- at the time we were given a large volume of military files and we weren't very familiar with military files. We thought it would be helpful for him to help us with that, and also with general office duties, to help train us in the day-to-day security operations of the office, someone who had skills and knowledge in security dealing with paperwork, that kind of thing. RPTS STEIN DCMN MAYER [5:10 p.m.] Q To your knowledge, he had previously done such work? A To answer the question, I believe from his work on the Senate committees that he did have those skills. Mr. Turk. Can we go off the record? [Discussion off the record.] Ms. Comstock. Back on the record. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q At the bottom of page 21 we have been discussing -- this is of a prior deposition of Craig Livingstone of March 22, 1995, and we are discussing who Mr. Livingstone reported to, and at the end you say, "and we review FBI, IRS, other relevant backgrounds and personnel data for the issuance of passes, granting of access to both staff and volunteers at the White House." And then the question is: Okay, and you said you were one of a number of individuals. Who were the other individuals? And the answer is: The only person that I can speak to, have personal knowledge of, would be my superior, but I don't know who else in Counsel's Office. I don't interact with other people. So you are -- Mr. Turk. That says, he is talking about people in Counsel's Office. I do not read that in any way to suggest that Mr. Livingstone is saying he doesn't interact with other people in the White House Office of Personnel Security, of which he is the head, which is the implication that you made when you made the statement earlier and justified going over material that you had gone over before. I just want to say that I think that is totally inappropriate to mischaracterize someone's testimony like that. This is a very important and serious matter, and you need to be very careful about the statements you make about sworn testimony. I would ask you to be more careful in the future. Ms. Comstock. My understanding is Personnel Security is within the Counsel's Office. The question -- my interpretation of -- I was trying to figure out who the other individuals were who worked from the office. Mr. Turk. What is that question, Ms. Comstock? Ms. Comstock. You were one of a number of individuals who reviewed files. Mr. Turk. That is not the question. Ms. Comstock. You were one of a number of individuals. Who were the other individuals reviewing files? Mr. Turk. That is not what the question is. It says, You were one of a number of individuals. Above that it says, And counsel has a representative to review those materials for him or her, and I am one of those people. Counsel has a representative. You are talking about the Counsel to the President; you are not talking about staff people in the White House office of Personnel Security. You didn't ask him ever in that deposition who else works in the White House Office of Personnel Security, identify for me who the individuals are who worked in that office. You didn't ask him that question, and it is totally unfair and mischaracterizing of his testimony to suggest that you asked that question and he declined to tell you, because he said, you say, he didn't interact with those people. Ms. Comstock. My understanding of that question is, I was asking what other people reviewed files. We are here clarifying that today and we will do that. Mr. Turk. I think it is very important that you not just blithely mischaracterize someone's sworn testimony in a deposition that you undoubtedly in your committee will try and get into the Congressional Record at some point. I want it to be very clear that you did not ask Mr. Livingstone that question and he never, in response to a question about who were the employees in his office, that he didn't interact with the people in his office. So let's proceed. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Could you describe what Mr. Marceca's duties in the military -- you said he came over to do the military files. A No, ma'am. I believe you asked me if I could recall what it was that we originally brought him over for. To the best of my recollection, I just said we had a lot of military files, military issues that we dealt with and we had a lot of other personnel security work to do, day-to-day paperwork, and I needed help. And he was brought over to help with those various administrative duties. Q Do you know on the detailee request form if he was requested for this military job of reviewing military files specifically, or do you have knowledge of what was detailed on the form, if anything? A If I could answer to the best of my knowledge, to the best of my knowledge, I believe, having looked at the paperwork yesterday, it says "To assist with military files and other office duties," something very close to that, "office functions, personnel functions." Q And did there come a time when Mr. Marceca was involved in something called the Update Project? A Yes. Q Could you describe what that was? A I am sorry, the Update Project or -- Q Yes, the Update Project. A As I understand it today, the Update Project was a project initiated by Ms. Nancy Gemmell for the purpose of creating new files for holdover employees and also for people who maintained access to the White House. Q Could you describe how that project proceeded, to your knowledge? A I have very little direct knowledge, how it proceeded. I know that Ms. Gemmell initiated it. I believe that -- I will say what I know. I know that she had volunteers and interns assisting with it, I don't know which ones specifically; and I know that Miss -- excuse me -- Mr. Marceca picked up on it at some point, I don't know at what point, but at some point in his detail he picked up on the project and Ms. Wetzl completed the project. Q Can you describe your knowledge of what was involved in this project, how it was conducted? A As I understand, Ms. Gemmell instructed the office, the support people that worked with her on it, to go off a Secret Service pass-holder list and to get the names of people off that list and submit files to the FBI, submit requests to the FBI for a copy of a previous report. Q And this was for people who were holdovers at the White House? A As I just said, it is for, as I understand it, people what were holdovers, but also people that require access. I believe there are as many people who require access to the White House who have passes as people who actually work there. It is a large number of people. Q Do you have any general idea of when this project began? A 1993. Q In the summer of 1993? A I am not sure. I think it started with Ms. Gemmell, but I am not positive. Q Have you recently contacted Ms. Gemmell? A I called Ms. Gemmell, I believe, in the last week and a half, two weeks. Q Can you describe your discussion with her? A I asked her not to speak to me but would she be kind enough to speak with my attorney, Mr. David Cohen. Q To your knowledge, did she do so? A I don't know. I got off the phone at that point. Q Did you do any memos on this project or know of any memos on this project? Did you do any memos on this project? A I don't believe I ever did anything with regard to this project. I just don't believe -- let me be specific so I don't -- it is a big thing to say about everything that happens. Mr. Turk. The question is, did you do any memos? Maybe it would be easier if you just focused on answering the question. Did you do any memos? The Witness. Did I do any memos on the Update Project? No. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Do you recall ever informing Mr. Kennedy about the project being undertaken? A I don't know there would be any reason to. I don't know. I don't recall. Q Can you describe your monitoring of this project? A I didn't supervise this project. Q Who did? A I believe Ms. Gemmell, Ms. Anderson, Ms. Wetzl and Mr. Marceca. Q And Ms. Gemmell left in mid-August; is that correct? A Yes, and I want to be clear. I am not suggesting that Ms. Gemmell worked at length on this project. I don't recall when she left and when the project started. I don't recall. Q You had said you had turned over the paperwork on Mr. Marceca's detailees. Besides these letters back and forth, are there any other documents that you turned over to them in relation to Mr. Marceca, if you can recall? I have stated that we do not have them and will not hold you to specific recollections of each and every item, but if you can recall any of the other items that are included in that -- Mr. Turk. I think the best way to deal with that would be to get the files from the White House rather than to be asking -- Ms. Comstock. If we have additional questions on that, maybe we can do something briefly on that if we need to talk with you about that. Mr. Turk. Maybe over the phone we can do that. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Can you describe to us any other knowledge you have of this Update Project throughout the fall of 1993? Mr. Turk. Could you focus that question a little bit? It is awfully open-ended. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q What knowledge of how long this Update Project went on for. You said it started at some point when Ms. Gemmell was there, which -- she left in mid-August. Is it fair to say that this project started before mid-August? Do you know if it started before mid-August? A I have no knowledge of when it specifically started. Q Do you know when it ended? A I have no specific knowledge of when it ended. However, I do know that I had asked Ms. Wetzl at some point, I believe it was in the 1994, about the project, and she said it was completed. Q And when did she tell you that? A To the best of my recollection, it was in 1994. Q Is that all that Ms. Wetzl told you about the project? A No. I have a specific recollection of Ms. Wetzl saying that on one occasion Tony had ordered too many files. Q So Lisa Wetzl told you that Tony had ordered too many files? A Right. Q And what did she tell you about that? A Something along those lines, I don't think exactly those words. I inferred that these were people that had since departed, and that we didn't need them. Q Did she tell you anything else? A No, not to my recollection. Q Did she tell you where these files were? A I believe she told me they were in the vault. That is a vague recollection. Q Did she ever write any memos or documents related to the issue of there were too many files being ordered? A I don't think so. Q Did you tell anybody about that? A Outside of the office, I don't believe so. Q Outside of which office? A The Personnel Security Office. Q Who in the Personnel Security Office would have known that there were too many files ordered? A I am saying I don't know that I discussed it, but if I had, it would be with someone in the office. Q Was Mr. Marceca aware that he had ordered too many files? A I don't think so. I think this recollection is after he departed and when Ms. Wetzl began or ended her work on it, somewhere in that time frame. Q So it was after Mr. Marceca left that Ms. Wetzl told you too many files had been ordered? A I don't have an exact recollection of that. Q Do you have any general recollection? Mr. Turk. I think he already told you what his general recollection was, vague recollection, I think was what he said. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q And you never told Mr. Kennedy about that? A No. I don't see any reason to. Q When she said there were too many files, what did you understand that to mean? A As I stated earlier, I thought this meant that for people that had since departed. We had a lot of people leaving throughout that first year, coming and going, and there was a lot of confusion. Q Did there come a time when somebody in the office made up a list of these files that were not needed? A I learned that recently. Mr. Turk. You are asking -- the question is, did there come a time when somebody in the Office of White House Personnel Security put together a list of these files? Ms. Comstock. Yes. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q And you -- A If it is the same list and the same files we are talking about that I became aware of recently, it was the files that, upon my learning of, I spoke with counsel and counsel had the files returned. Q But in 1994, did you ever see such a list of files that had been mistakenly obtained from the FBI? A I don't recall. I think I would have dealt with it if I saw it. I am sure I would have. Q Did you have an understanding that these files had been mistakenly obtained? A When? Mr. Turk. I think those were your words. I think what Mr. Livingstone has testified is that Ms. Wetzl told him, was not -- the words were that Tony had ordered too many files or something like that. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Did there come a time -- could you describe how files are placed in the vault? A There are shelves and I believe there are 70 bins about this size, 18-by-24 inch bins, and the files are legal size or regular size folders and they are placed inside these bins by codes, staff, volunteers, GSA, telephone, depending on what category you work at the White House. Q So are they filed alphabetically by office? A Yes, ma'am. Q And at any time did you learn what office in the White House these files had been, the too many files came from? A No. Q To your knowledge, was this group of too many files placed in the vault? A Yes. Q And did there come a time when they were removed from the vault? A Yes, ma'am. Q Could you describe how that came about? A I can't. They were archived by, I believe with Ms. Wetzl. Q And do you know why she did that? A It is just general practice when the vault becomes full or we have a group of files that we can archive -- "archive" means, by the way, in the White House, not sent to the Archives. None of the files that we have at the White House actually leave the White House until the end of the presidency. Q Can you describe the process in which they were archived? A Yes, ma'am. The files are -- Mr. Turk. This is generally. The Witness. The general procedures for archiving files in our office would be to take the files, alphabetize them, put them in a Records Management book, have a box code assigned by Records Management, alphabetize the list, make copies for both Personnel Security and Records Management's office so there is a duplicative list of -- since we are remanding the files to Records Management, that we have lists that match up of what we are giving them; and I believe they take the files then to the 5th floor of the Executive Office Building, where we are able to retrieve the files, if necessary, and they have a checkout system. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q And were you aware of any other material that was archived with these files? A No. Q Did you have any knowledge of who any of the people in these files were? A When? Q In 1993 or 1994. A No. Q Did you ever see any of the lists? A I don't believe that I ever worked on the Update Project, requesting files. Q Did you ever see the list that Miss -- do you know who prepared the list? A I am not sure exactly which list they operated off, but I believe -- Mr. Turk. Let's get some clarification. The lists you are now talking about are these duplicative lists of what -- Ms. Comstock. The "too many files" list is the list. Mr. Turk. A list that might have been made when these documents were archived? Ms. Comstock. Yes. Mr. Turk. I think what you first want to find out is whether he knows if that is in fact what happened, because I think when he testified earlier he was talking about the general procedure for archiving, having already said he didn't know what really happened with regard to the archiving of these files. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Ms. Wetzl had told you there were too many files ordered by Mr. Marceca, right? A She said something along the lines like "Tony had overordered files. Tony had requested too many files," something like that. Q Did you ask her what that meant? A At the time period, I thought that meant that people -- as I said earlier, that people had since departed. Q And you didn't ask her to do anything with them? A No, ma'am. Our instructions from Ms. Gemmell and others was that if anything came into our office that was a presidential record, we were to treat it as a presidential record, secure its safety and store it in the vault. No one ever said, if you get a file that is not yours that you need to return it somewhere. As I understood it, if we ordered it, then we were supposed to secure it and make sure it got to archives. That is the only information that I believe I was ever given by anybody. Q At the time Ms. Wetzl told you about the "too many files," did you consult with anybody about what should be done with these files? A I think it is important to frame this conversation. It is not like she sat me down in a meeting and we were going over an office situation. As I recall it, it was more of a casual comment, not like she was alerting me or wrote a memo to me, or pointing out specific knowledge she had about the files. I told you the inference I got from that, which was that these were people who had since departed. Mr. Turk. Maybe you need to explain what you mean by, these are people who have since departed. I am not sure it is clear. The Witness. When we came in that office, there was nothing in the vault that had told us who was working there, and we were very dependent on the Secret Service and other career agencies, Office of Administration, for any kind of list of people that might still have access to the White House. And -- I am sorry, I lost my train of thought. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q When Ms. Wetzl told you about these files in 1994, Ms. Gemmell was not at the White House, was she? A I don't recall, ma'am. Q Did you consult Ms. Gemmell at that time to see what should be done with the files, in 1994? A I don't have a specific recollection, but as I recall, speaking with Ms. Gemmell, our responsibility for any records coming into that office was to secure them and store them properly. Q When Ms. Wetzl told you about this, did you consult with anybody about what to do about these "too many files" that had been ordered? A I don't believe I did. Mr. Goldberg. I have some questions. EXAMINATION BY MR. GOLDBERG: Q Mr. Livingstone, thanks for coming back. What did Ms. Gemmell do in your office? What was her role? A She had been there, I believe, almost 12 years and almost 26 years at the White House. Q Can you describe precisely what her job was in the office? A She was the Office Administrator. Q Did you have any reason to think that she didn't have a good institutional knowledge of how that office had operated over the previous years? A No, sir. When I interviewed people at the White House, everyone said that she would have no problem working with a new political administration, that she would give us good direction and try and train us to the best of her ability. Q When she gave you direction, did you have any reason to suspect that it wasn't a well-intentioned direction of how the process should be followed? A Absolutely not. Q Did she discuss with you a process for updating security files in general? I am not talking particularly about the Update Project. In general, did she discuss with you the process for updated security files? A I don't recall having a conversation with her about that. Q What understanding did you have of the process that your office needed to use for updating security files? A I think it is important to say, when we came into that office, there is not a manual, there is not a book, there is not a guide. The women who were with the previous administration did their best to give us copies of some lists and forms, a form in fact that they apparently whited out and typed Mr. Nussbaum's name on for us. We eventually got a new one on the computer. Q Could you explain that? A The form that was in the paper recently with Mr. Dale. Q That is the same form that had been used, but the name had been whited out? A I believe that form had been used for close to 20 years. Q What do you base that on? A I know I had a form in the office for Mr. Gray, and I asked someone about that and they said that form had been used by many administrations. Q So you didn't have any knowledge or understanding of how, what the process was in general for updating security files, but at some point, I think your testimony was, Ms. Gemmell discussed with you what we are now referring to as the Update Project? A Yes. Q Can you discuss again exactly to your recollection what she told you about this project? did she use the term Update Project, do you remember? A I don't recall. Q Do you remember what she may have told you about this project or what needed to be done? A It wasn't the biggest of priorities because these people had already been cleared by, albeit a different administration's counsel, but Counsel's Office and Secret Service. So therefore they had been adjudicated properly and most of them would have had their permanent passes. So it wasn't a priority for us to get to work on these people as much as it was to get our new staff done. Q Who are you talking about, "these people"? A To be specific, these people who are the holdovers and other people from other government agencies or people that had been given access to the White House by the Bush or Reagan administration. Q So if they had already been adjudicated as having appropriate background files to be given access, what was the purpose for then recreating their files? A We needed to know -- we needed to request -- there are two functions. Q The files did not exist when you came in? They had been sent to the previous administration's archives? A That is correct. Q You had basically nothing in the vault? A They are treated as presidential records and remanded to the presidential library if the President decides to have a library. Q Then what was the reason for having to cull files on people who had already been adjudicated -- A It is very difficult for me to recall when I learned of this, because it has been 3 years, but I believe the first time I learned of it was with Ms. Gemmell and that -- that -- that this was just a project that needed to be done, but she was going to start on it and that I could focus on other things. Q She came to you and told you that this was a project that needed to be done; is that your recollection? A I believe that is the case. Q Exactly what was it that needed to be done? A Certainly because I wasn't aware that it needed to be done, and that is what I base my recollection on. Q Did she discuss with you -- procedures with you that needed to be done on this project? A If she did, I don't recall, but it is possible. Q Did you have any understanding at the time of what the procedures were? A That the individual would work up a list, type up the form that you see there and put it in a pouch which went to the FBI via courier. Q What would happen after the FBI received the form? What is your understanding of what would happen? A The FBI would respond to it, and if they had a copy of the previous report, they would send it. If they didn't, they would say, No report available. Q Did you review the responses that came in from the FBI? A I can't answer that question specifically. I believe that I looked at some -- many thousands if not tens of thousands of those reports since I have been there, and I can't possibly recall which reports in that context I looked at. Q So you may have looked at reports that came in for other reasons and you may have also looked at reports that came in for this reason, but you just don't recall? A That is correct. Q When you looked at a report, what would be the purpose of looking at the report? A Specifically to see if there were any issues or concerns that this administration might have on a person's suitability for the position which they were in. Q Did you look at every report that came back from the FBI, or did your staff sort of make recommendations, which ones you needed to pay attention to? A I don't believe I looked at every single report. I think there were quite a few reports that said, No report attached, where there was no response which I wouldn't look at. I know that when Mr. Marceca was there, very often he would look at reports for me and he might note derogatory information, but I don't believe that he always discussed it with me. When we say "derogatory information," "derogatory information" doesn't necessarily mean something heinous. It could be that you had a speeding ticket. That is considered derogatory information. There is no soft way to put the word. I just want to make it clear that unless it was something really serious, I doubt that Mr. Marceca would bring it to my attention. Q So you depended on your staff to bring to your attention problems that they may have had? A Yes. Q You wouldn't look at every report that came to the office, only those the staff determined -- A I think in the first year I looked at a lot of the reports, but as we all got trained in our functions and our mission became clear, we -- I trained my staff to look for certain types of information, and if there wasn't any of that type information, that I felt confident that they could make a decision if the information was derogatory or not. Q Can you recall today, going back three years, whether that transition from when you reviewed everything to when you relied on your staff took place prior to the initiation of the Update Project or after? A I believe it was in 1994 when Ms. Wetzl trained our staff. Q Do you believe that any of the update files that may have come into the office in 1993, that you probably reviewed? A I won't say probably, but I will say it is possible. Q Do you have a general recollection? A I am not trying to be difficult. I reviewed many thousands of files, and I just can't, looking at that list of names there, say I remember reviewing that file. Q And again, the purpose of reviewing any file, even if someone had access, was to readjudicate? A The only purpose is to always check for suitability issues. Q Who received the reports from the FBI? Were they addressed specifically to someone in your office? A Well, I want to be specific here. Background investigations go to Associate Counsel. Q "Background" is when you request a full field background because there is no existing file on a person; is that a correct understanding? A It is partially correct. A background investigation would be initiated for several reasons, one of which is a new employee for access to the complex, employment in the Federal Government. Another would be for reinvestigation, which is required every five years. Another would be if an investigation were more than a year old, the White House would ask for a limited update. And other reasons. But those would go to counsel prior to coming to us. Q What about the update reports, which I am assuming were nothing more than the preexisting FBI files? A Well, first of all, you need to put your fingers a whole lot closer. To be clear -- and I have read this in the paper day after day -- most of the update reports, particularly having looked at them recently, are one or two pages and it reads like a resume, where you were born, your name, where you went to school, if you are married or divorced, your job history, and that is about it, unless you have serious derogatory information. What concerns me is that people should understand that all these people worked for the previous White House or had access to the previous White House. Therefore, 99 percent of them probably didn't have any derogatory. There was nothing we were reading other than what they probably hand out on a professional level. Q Those reports, do you know if they went to the Counsel's Office or to your office, if the FBI delivered them? A I believe they came to our office first. Q Do you know who they were delivered to in your office? Would they have a name on them? A No, it would be Mari, Lisa; it would be Mari, Tony, Lisa, Ed, Jonathan and -- from this time period, would be people that would receive them. Q What I am confused about is that the form we have seen, which says Nussbaum, doesn't appear to have someone in the office's name on it. The FBI may know to go to your office, but how would they know who in the office to deliver it to? A The room itself is not that big and, when they came in, one of those people would sign for them. Q So somebody would open it and determine what it was and distribute it -- A If it were an envelope, he would put it in somebody's hands in an envelope. If he were picking it up, there was a courier spot where the courier would pick it up. Q Did you approve every request that went to the FBI? A Certainly not. Q Why not? A Until recently I didn't see a reason to, and as explained to me at the beginning, when I started, there wasn't any procedure for that. If there was, we would have adopted it. Q Did you have any discussions that you can recall specifically with people that were in the office from previous administrations, where they told you that the standard process was not for you to review the forms? A No. I don't think anybody from the previous administration said, don't review the forms, no. Q Did you have any understanding from the holdovers in your office about what the process had been? A Other than that I was to review for derogatory information -- Q I meant the forms going out. A No. They said fill it out and make a copy for the file and put it in the pouch and they come pick it up, period. Q How many forms do you have an understanding, in 1993, went out in a given day or week? A As I recall from the GAO report, the FBI said they did 30,000 of those reports for me since '93 -- excuse me, the beginning of the administration. Q So logistically it may have been impossible for you to review every one of the forms that went out. Do you have any understanding, how many went out on a regular basis in the early months? A Thousands. Q Did you discuss with Ms. Gemmell whether these procedures that she was using were the same as had been used in previous White Houses for this Update Project? A As I stated before, I don't recall having an in-depth conversation on the Update Project with her. Q Do you have any recollection of whether she said, this is something we need to do when any administration changes? A Yes. Q What do you recall about that part of the conversation? A It seemed fairly innocuous, this was something we had to do, she said specifically, I believe, that from Reagan to Bush even that they didn't have the records and that it was very difficult, but this is the way to do it and we will get some people on it. Something along those lines. Q When Mr. Marceca came in on his detail, do you recall whether he overlapped with Ms. Gemmell? A I am not positive, but I believe that is possible. Q Did he discuss with you that he had been working on this project? A Other than that he was working on it, we didn't have any conversations about him working on it. Q So you were vaguely aware that he was working on it, but didn't know the procedures he might be using; is that your understanding? A I don't have a specific recollection of talking to anyone about when Tony started or if Tony was trained properly on it. Q I think you stated before that Ms. Gemmell instructed usual office personnel to go off of the Secret Service list for purposes of the Update Project. A To the best of my recollection. Q Do you have any understanding of why you would use the Secret Service list as opposed to just going to the personnel office and asking who was currently employed by the White House? A As I stated before, most of the people are not employed by the White House. Most of the people that have access to White House -- therefore, need to have a file, therefore, a need for us to know who they are -- are housed outside the complex. Q Is it your understanding that the Secret Service is the only one who has a list, if there is such a list, of people who would be on an access list? Would any other office in the White House have a list of people who would need access to the White House? A No. That certainly has changed. Mr. Turk. I think he means at the time, in 1993. The Witness. At the time in '93, as I stated, I don't know the involvement at the early part of the Update Project, so I don't know exactly what list they went off of. I am confident the major list was the Secret Service list. BY MR. GOLDBERG: Q And it is your recollection that from what you knew in '93, that was the appropriate place to go if you wanted to do an Update Project? A Yes, but I want to say that I don't in any way cast aspersions, blame, seek to infer that the Secret Service made an error or screwed up or anything. All I am saying -- you have asked me a specific question, but I want it made clear that I am not accusing the Secret Service; I am just trying to give the facts. I would like to state that for the record. I thought -- I thought that the Secret Service, who is there 7 days a week, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, who had a wonderful looking computer printout -- and I say that because in the office prior to me they typed most of their stuff by hand, and the things that we did get were carbon copies, and there wasn't anything in the computer. So I wasn't sure how up to date certain things were. I thought at that time that the best list to go with was the Secret Service list, because they are responsible at the present complex, ensuring that people who ought to have access to White House be identified. Q Was it your decision initially to use the Secret Service list, or do you recall if Ms. Gemmell decided to use the Secret Service list, or was it your decision? A As I stated earlier I don't recall how the project was initiated. I don't recall having a discussion saying that, where I was in charge of the project and saying, this is what I want done. I don't believe that happened. Q Did there come a time in '93 when you realized that who you thought might be employed at the White House, the list that you thought might be of the White House was not an accurate list? A I don't know when we specifically started to clean up the list, but I do know that a year into the administration we spent a lot of time going name by name by name and trying to clean up the list. Q Do you recall what prompted that? A I don't recall a specific instance, no. Q When you were doing this, did it -- did you have in your mind that it was also related to the list that Ms. Gemmell and Mr. Marceca may have been -- the project they may have been using or the list they may have going off of, or was that two separate issues? A In my mind, that was two separate issues, and I did not make a connection. Q So even though you might have thought that you could get it through an updated list and get the list as accurate as possible and connect that with -- A I want to be precise. I am not saying that I was -- while they were doing the update list, I was taking off names right and left. I specifically said, I don't recall when we started reviewing it and I don't recall making the connection between the two. Q Can you describe exactly what steps you were taking to address the problem that you perceived, not having an accurate list of who was -- who had access? A Well, can I tell you what I know? Q That would be always -- A What I know is there was a project called the Bunny Base Project. Q Can you describe that? A Yes. The Bunny Base Project -- just like it sounds, "bunny" and "base" -- was a project that was initiated, I think in '93 or '94, so that everybody could get -- that worked at the White House or had an appropriate White House pass could get an Easter egg from the President. But this is important, because it goes to heart of what I am trying to say. Q Was this had around Easter of '94? A I think that is correct. I am not positive. I think that is a fair assumption, but I don't know how early they started it. The reason I mention this is, I remember as a result of that project, talking with Lisa and others about the difficulty that -- when you had asked me, why didn't I check with Personnel, well, Personnel would call us and say, Hey, we don't have this person on our list as being personnel, invariably we would call them back and say, Oh, yes, this is where they work. So you know, just trying to talk about the breadth of recordkeeping and the people that are coming and going and people that are leaving and not checking out properly, and all those issues, the reason I mention the Bunny Base Project, that is a project that was trying -- that is something that I specifically remember where different people were involved at the White House in trying to clean up the Secret Service list and other internal lists so we would have an accurate accounting of who was at the White House, who requires access to the White House and why. As a result of that, we have a computer tracking system now in our office that we can tell you when people come and go -- provided, of course, they tell us when they go. But better than that, we can tell you when they submit their paperwork, when they got their clearance, when their paperwork is completed, IRS, it is all in the computer now for every person that has a pass, that is active on this current Secret Service list. So if I were to leave Monday, the person that replaces me would be able to come into that office and it would be fully automated. Q Is this a system that your office created? A We didn't invent the tracking system, of course, but other offices in the government use it, and we employed it. Q Do you recall how long it took you from the Bunny Base Project to -- can you describe the time line from the Bunny Base Project to when this system became operative? A I think in '94 was when our office got its act together with the help of management, with Mr. Panetta coming in and Mrs. Torkelson and the Management Administration. We began to see support from other offices, simple things like letting us know when personnel leave so that we can properly note. Q When Mr. Marceca's detail was up, did he discuss with you the status of the Update Project? A I think Tony said something along the lines, he would like to stay and help out and finish it, something along those lines. Q But that obviously didn't happen, since he only made it up to G? A Yes. That is the extent, I think, of our conversation on it. Q Why did he leave? A I think Tony would have like to have stayed, but -- Mr. Turk. Was it a 6-month detail? The Witness. Yes, it was a 6-month detailee which was not renewed. BY MR. GOLDBERG: Q Did he attempt to renew it, do you know? A Yes. Q Whose decision would it be to renew it? A I think initially at the White House it would have been Mr. Kennedy. Q Did you discuss with Mr. Kennedy whether or not to renew -- A Yes. Mr. Kennedy did not want to renew his detail, which is not uncommon. Q Did he tell you why? A Based on -- as I said, for everybody that comes to the White House, we do investigations; and based on his investigation, I think Mr. Kennedy decided not to renew his detail. Q Did Mr. Kennedy discuss with you what was in the investigation that -- A Just in general terms. Q Can you relate those? A Something along the lines that he had some unresolved issues. Q When Ms. Wetzl took over the project, did she discuss with you that she was going to get into the project to try to finish it up? A I don't think we had a sit-down conversation about it. I think it was on her list of things to do, her mental list. Q Were you aware that she would be working on it? A Yes. As I said, in 1994, when we got the support from the Chief of Staff's memo -- everybody get their paperwork in on time, and by a specific time, we -- we were able to focus on cleaning all the lists and delivering the kind of accountability which our office should be able to deliver, which is what I said as far as being able to account for every pass that is listed as active by the Secret Service, having a file or some documentation that these people have a reason to be there. Q Did she ever tell you that files had been requested on individuals either no longer employed by the White House or obviously not in need of access to the White House? A No. I think what she said, to be specific, is that Tony had overordered files. Q Did she complete the project, to your knowledge? A Yes, she did. She told me she had completed the project. Q So after she left the White House, the project was finished and there was no need to continue on the project? A The Update Project, I guess that is a fair statement. But not entirely. I mean, the Update Project is an ongoing thing. It is in a sense that anybody that requires a reinvestigation would be part of the Update Project. The people that have been there since '90, for example, would require and do get reinvestigations. So what we have now is a notebook which lists all the employees outside of the political offices of the White House -- for example GSA, telephone, employees of the residence, National Park Service, et cetera; we have an accounting of each of their passes, and then on that form it says when their last investigation is and when we need their next investigation, and from the tracking system, which I talked to you about, we get a quarterly report that tells us when someone is within four months of needing a reinvestigation, and we call them on the phone, tell them to come get their paperwork, and the paperwork is submitted for reinvestigation. So, to be precise, the Update Project is a never-ending thing. It is just very precise now. Q In the course of your job, as you are reviewing an FBI file on somebody and you become aware of what you might perceive to be a problem, do you raise that to the head of the office that person is being considered for access to, or do you make a determination yourself? A I am sorry? Q As a general process, when you review an FBI report, say that you find information that you believe might be significant, whether someone is given access, what do you do with that information? A As I said earlier -- when you asked about the process, I mentioned that background investigations first go to counsel. I may never see a background investigation. If counsel determines that a person is not suitable or they don't want to continue the investigation, they will inform us in Personnel that the person will be separated. Q What about the thousands of reports you reviewed? A They will come to my office and -- actually, we have someone pick them up from Counsel's Office. At their request, we have a box in their office, and counsel comments on it like, this person has an expired driver's license according to the FBI, confirm that they get their driver's license renewed. What we do is, we call the people up -- I call the people up and say, hey, the FBI tells us -- my wife and I just moved to Virginia and we didn't have a chance to get a new license, blah, blah, blah. I say, just bring me a copy of your license and we will get it corrected. Then I inform counsel, and if that is the only issue, we then forward it to the Secret Service. Q So the flow of paperwork is from Counsel's Office to your shop and not the other way around? A Yes, sir. Q But not for the Update Project? A For the Update Project, it is a copy of a previous report. Counsel has already reviewed it. They employ the same system that we have; and the copy of a previous report, we treat as a name check, which is done on everybody that comes into the White House. They name-check every single person that comes into the White House, other than an appointment, or to an event, as a name check -- all the volunteers, all the interns, all staff, all the postal workers, everybody that passes through on a regular basis has a name check done. If you do a name check, the copy of a previous report would come anyway. I am trying to explain the logic of it getting to us. RPTS STEWART DCMN KRISTOFFERSEN [6:15 p.m.] Q Did Mr. Nussbaum review each request? A No. Q You stated prior in that administration the name on the form was Mr. Gray's? A Well, I don't know that for a fact. However, I had the document -- I have several documents in my office, many of which came back months -- of course Mr. Gray was counsel in the previous administration, and anything that he sent in up to January 19th would, of course, come back to us with his name on it. So of course we would have all the documentation that he sent, and it is exactly the same thing that we sent. Therefore, we always assumed we were doing the right thing. Q Let me just clarify, when the FBI returned something that had been previously requested by Mr. Gray, they would return his form on the file? A Oh, yes, absolutely. Q Did you review any of the forms that came in in the early months and days of the administration? A I am sure I did. I recall seeing them. Q Do you recall whether it has a signature or initials? A No, it didn't. Q Did not. How did you learn that? Despite the name of the counsel on the requested form, the counsel didn't personally sign off on every one of these requests? A I think by matter of practice. Before I actually started, I was in the office for a little while, and I watched what they did, and I tried to learn by example. There were -- when I was first in the office, there were four previous administration employees in the office, two of which resigned within a week or two of me being there, very nice people, and they were very happy to let me look over their shoulder, and I know for a fact that I employed the same procedures and protective standards that they did in regards to requesting name checks. Q You stated that Jane, I think it is Hanour -- A Dannehuer, D-A-N-N-E-H-U-E-R, I believe. Q Who is she? A She was my predecessor in the Bush and Reagan. Q You say she was in the office for about a month before? A She stayed over for about a month; that is correct. Q Did she have discussions with you about the process the office should use? A No. As I recall -- yes, general stuff of course, but, you know, like I said, there wasn't a manual or a book. They were very kind to give us a notebook which had copies of all the forms, including the one I assume they made for us where it was whited out; Mr. Nussbaum's name was typed over Mr. Gray. This was that, a collection of books; these are the forms you should use; this is the form you should use, the SF-86, and this how you should fill it out; this is the form you should use for requesting the name check of course; this is the form for IRS report, et cetera, et cetera. There wasn't like we have now through the White House and its efforts to tighten and provide better service. We have a notebook in our office now that has office procedures. There is nothing political in it at all. If this administration were to change, I would be very happy or I am sure any predecessor or person who follows me, give it to person and say, "Here; these are the things you want to do from day 1, and this is what you want to avoid. Page 1 is your Government operations edict on 30 days and 6 months. It is the first thing in the book everybody reads. The paperwork will be done in 30 days, and you get your permit pass in 6 months. That is the first thing everybody reads." Q Just to go back, do you recall what Ms. Dannenour did during roughly that month she was in your office? A I think she was very helpful in us getting our stuff in. As I recall, she was helping us with issues of access more than anything else. Q Do you recall when you took over that office whether there were any written procedures such as you described and since created? A There weren't, and I had asked for them. Q Who did you ask for them? A I am pretty sure Ms. Gemmell. Q And she told you -- they told you there was none? A Right; there wasn't a book -- an office manual. Q What about for the purpose of requesting files from the FBI? Was there any written procedures? A No. They just told you how to do it literally. We were sitting in a room as I described, and there is a shelf over here with an envelope. The forms are here. You fill in the name. You put in the date of birth or information as you have it. You put it in the pass. They pick it up and bring it back in 10, 14 days. You review it. If there are no problems, you create a file, you put it in the file. If there is supporting information for a pass or something like that in the file, you move on to the next step. Q Let me just ask you a couple of questions for the record. Were you ever instructed by anyone to obtain FBI information on individuals no longer employed or being considered for employment or access to the White House? A Only because I am not an attorney. I don't -- that question sounds a little more open-ended. You are asking me, did anybody ask me to get a file -- request a file from the FBI and that I knew they were from -- Q That is what I mean. A I am sorry, I was trying to be precise. Q That is a good clarification. Were you ever instructed -- A Absolutely not. Q Did you ever knowingly instruct anybody on file to access -- A Let me go back to that first question, because I think that that question is troublesome in the sense, I knew of people that had to do name checks on -- that were from a previous administration that were being considered for the Bush Library, or the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, or the CIA, or whatever. Q Your job went beyond the White House, it went to other entities that had presidential function? A Just as a liaison. I want to be precise, because I want -- I don't want you to think I am saying one thing and I mean another. I mean another -- you know what I mean. Sorry, that didn't make any sense. I want to be precise. If I didn't have documentation if someone came to me in Counsel's Office and said -- and nobody from any other office would come to me unless it was from in conjunction for personnel security, period. If this helps answer the question, no one outside the personnel security issue would ever ask me for a file. Jack Gibbons from the Office of Science and Technology would be requesting to give an award on behalf of the President for metal and sciences. I don't have any knowledge that their employee would require access to the White House, but when I get from Mr. Gibbons and -- which file and we put -- we sent to counsel a letter saying this person has been nominated for this particular award and this is why we are asking for those names. I am just trying to be precise. There are reasons that if someone didn't work there, there -- I would request it. I am not trying to be confusing; I am sorry. Q Let me go back to who in your office actually could request FBI files using the form we discussed with Mr. Nussbaum's name on. Could anybody in your office, including a secretary, fill out a form? A Any staffer? Q Any staffer? A In fact -- in fact -- I know for a fact that we often have interns and volunteers -- not volunteers but interns type them up for us at our request. Q What kind of oversight do you provide? A Again, I am not directly involved in it. I am now. Q When you say "now," you mean in the last 10 days? A Right. But at the time I depended on Lisa and Mary or Jonathan or Ed to make sure that nothing went -- to the best of their ability, nothing went into the packet. But other offices come in there and put stuff in our packets -- our pouch, Counsel's Office from upstairs for presidential appointments, et cetera. The Secret Service puts information in that packet; other Counsel's Office. Q Could any office besides the ones you just mentioned -- could the Correspondence Office come in and put a request? A I have no way of accounting at that time period who could have put anything in that packet. Since that time, counsel has taken corrective action. Ms. Comstock. Since what time? The Witness. Since your inquiry. BY MR. GOLDBERG: Q To your knowledge is there any way the counsel whose name is on that form would have any idea who was using that form? A I am sorry. Q Is there any way that the counsel whose name was on that form, in this case Mr. Nussbaum, would have any idea who was using those forms to request files? A I don't believe I ever talked to Mr. Nussbaum. I know I never talked to Mr. Nussbaum about -- Mr. Turk. That wasn't the question. The Witness. What is the question? I am sorry. Mr. Turk. The question was, do you have any -- do you know if the person whose name is on the form has any way of knowing, you know, through some kind of procedure that is set up or whatever -- The Witness. At that time, no. Mr. Goldberg. That is all I have right now. Mr. Turk. Let's take a 10-minute break; okay. Ms. Comstock. We usually in our depositions -- as you know, Minority has questions. That is the reason it takes longer. [Discussion held off the record.] BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Back on the record here. Were you aware of the FBI calling your office in December to inquire about the large number of requests that were arriving for copies of previous reports? Mr. Turk. December of what year? December of 1993. The Witness. I don't recall. Mr. Turk. Was that call -- was a call was made in December of 1993 to the Office of White House Personnel Security. Ms. Comstock. Yes, I am asking if you are aware of a call -- Mr. Turk. Are you saying there was such a call? Ms. Comstock. I am asking if he was aware of such a call. Mr. Turk. By asking if you are aware, it makes it sound like there was such a call. Are you testifying? Ms. Comstock. No. I am asking if the witness is aware -- why don't I broaden it a little bit. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Are you aware in the fall of 1993 or even early '94 of any calls from the FBI asking any questions about the unusually large number of requests for previous files? A I have no such knowledge. Mr. Turk. I just -- I want to clarify for the record, we all know there are questions like, "When did you stop beating your wife?" which assume in the question a fact that isn't necessarily true at all and of course wouldn't be in these circumstances. My question is, when you ask if he is aware of phone calls coming from the FBI, are you testifying yourself that there were such calls? Ms. Comstock. I am asking, did you ever receive any phone call? Mr. Turk. You are asking if he ever received any phone call, okay. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Did you ever receive any phone calls from the FBI discussing the unusually large number of requests for previous reports? A I have no knowledge or recollection of that. Q Do you have any knowledge of any such phone calls to your office? A About what you just asked? Q Yes. A No, I do not. Q Did anyone ever in your office ever bring to your attention that the FBI was asking about anything having to do about the update project? A I don't have any recollection. Q You had mentioned that you had looked at the FBI reports recently, and I don't want to mischaracterize your testimony. I was just wondering, did you look at the 330 files themselves recently, or did you look at the list? It was a question Mr. Goldberg had asked you, and I just want to see what you meant there. Why don't I ask you, have you looked at those files recently, at any of the 333 files that were identified on -- why don't I provide you with a list. I will show the witness a letter of June 13th, 1996, from Jane Sherburne of the White House. I will make this Exhibit 1. This is a letter to the committee, and attached to part of it is a list of 300-and-something-odd files that have been identified as the files -- and this is a characterization from the White House -- which were mistakenly obtained from the FBI in late 1993 and early 1994. [Livingstone Deposition Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.] BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Referring to this list, have you looked at any of these files recently? A I have looked at this file. Q And you are referring to? A I am sorry. Billy Dale, which I believe it is properly noted here that I requested on 6/6/96 at the request of White House counsel. Q And could you explain how that request came about? Mr. Turk. If you know. The Witness. I am not positive -- BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Who requested you from the White House Counsel's Office -- why don't I strike the last question. Mr. Turk. That is going to be a communication, an instruction, from somebody in the White House Counsel's Office to an employee -- I am a little bit concerned about whether or not there are any privilege issues there. I don't know, and I don't want to raise -- I am not objecting on grounds of privilege, but I am concerned about what it is that we may be getting into here. You asked him, did he review? He asked him, has he reviewed any of these files recently? Ms. Comstock. Why don't we finish with that topic first. Mr. Turk. Did you review Mr. Dale's file. The Witness. I didn't review it. Mr. Turk. Let's get -- let's be specific here. She wants to know if you have reviewed what is in these files. The Witness. I don't believe I reviewed the files. Mr. Turk. All right. The Witness. I am being specific. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q And on this list of files, your name is next to Billy Ray Dale's file dated -- and there is a date of June 6th, 1996, with your name. Could you tell us what that means, if you know? A I am having difficulty keeping this in context, but I believe that is when counsel requested it to be released to your committee. Q Well, I will state for the record, we received Mr. Dale's file on May 30th, 1996. So does that refresh your recollection as to as if there was another purpose why you may have obtained this file on June 6th, 1996? Mr. Turk. Well, if the file was given to your file on the 30th of May, how could Mr. Livingstone have reviewed it on the 6th of June? Ms. Comstock. Well, we got a copy of the file. There is this notation on this list. I am just asking the witness if he has any knowledge of what occurred on June 6th, 1996, that has to do with him and Mr. Billy Ray Dale's file, if he knows. The Witness. When did we return the files to the FBI? Could you help refresh my memory on that? Ms. Comstock. Actually, I believe the FBI indicated they received 333 files on June 6th. The Witness. Okay. Then that is -- I suspect that is what happened. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Now 333 files were returned on June 6th, and I am just wondering why that file in particular has your name dated -- why Mr. Dale's file in particular has the June 6th date next to it in your name. Mr. Turk. Whose handwriting is this? Ms. Comstock. Can the witness identify whose handwriting this is? We do not know. The Witness. No. Mr. Turk. You are asking why somebody else wrote his name on that document? Ms. Comstock. I am asking what he knows about June 6th, 1996, in this file. I am sorry, there is no indication on this letter of June 13th from Jane Sherburne whose handwriting this is on this list. So, again, I am just giving the information that we have at this time. Mr. Turk. And this handwriting, you are representing that this handwriting was on the document when we received it from the White House, yes. We have no knowledge about what the handwriting is, and we can -- Mr. Turk. Is that your handwriting, Mr. Livingstone? The Witness. No. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Do you know if it's -- you recognize it as anyone from your's office handwriting, if you know? A It does look familiar to me to be someone in Records Management's handwriting -- looks familiar. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q So can you tell us anything else about June 6th and Mr. Dale's file and what you may have been, if anything, doing with Mr. Dale's file on June 6th, 1996? A I know that the only time I have requested Mr. Dale's file or this other file was in response to counsel's request. I had no personal need to have his file. Q When did you first learn of Mr. Dale's file being in the White House? A I don't have a specific memory of that. Mr. Turk. Are you asking him when was he aware that it was -- Mr. Dale's file was -- that there was a file from Mr. Dale in the White House? Ms. Comstock. When did you first learn that Mr. -- you had previously testified or -- when you arrived at the White House for the holdover employees, you said there were no FBI background files; is that correct? A That is correct. Q And initially, in 1993, Mr. Dale was a holdover employee; is that correct? A That is correct. Q And you recall how Mr. Dale left the White House, don't you? A That is correct. Q And, in fact, on May 19th -- on May 19th, 1993, showing the witness a memo, which is CGE 33034 memorandum to Arnie Cole from Craig Livingstone regarding restricted access. It has the names of seven Travel Office employees to be put on restricted access. I believe, "Please place the following people on restricted access," I think is referred to as also as, "Do not admit." Is that correct? A It says, "Restricted access," so -- Q On May 19th, 1993, do you recall doing this memo? A Thereabouts. Ms. Comstock. Let me make that Exhibit 2. [Livingstone Deposition Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.] Ms. Comstock. Showing the witness CGE 4361 through 4362, which is Mr. Billy Ray Dale -- it is a request form dated December 20th, 1993, to FBI Liaison from Bernie Nussbaum. The subject is FBI investigations -- and the subject's name is Billy Ray Dale -- we request -- and the part that is checked there is a previous report and the person named above is being considered for access. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Do you have any knowledge of a request for Mr. Dale's previous report in December of 1993? A No. Q When did you first see this form? A I don't recall when I first saw it. Q Can you place it in the past month? A No. I think it is in the last year or possibly two, but I don't recall. Q When you -- describe when you learn Mr. Dale's files had been obtained from the FBI. A I am not sure. I believe it was in response to one of the reviews that we had. Q What reviews? I am sorry. A I think it was an external review, but I am not sure. Can you refresh my memory? Can I ask you a question? Can you refresh my memory that the GAO did a review of the Travel Office? Q Yes, they did a review of the Travel Office from December of 1993. It was completed in May of 1994. A It may have been in response to that. Counsel may have asked us to provide -- Mr. Turk. Mr. Livingstone, I think it is important that you testify about what you recall, not about what is possible. The question is , I believe, not -- I don't believe Ms. Comstock is interested in what is possible. I think she wants to know what you recall, and she asked you -- The Witness. I don't have a specific recollection. Mr. Turk. When do you recall having seen Mr. Dale's file? The Witness. I don't. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q So it is sometime in the past year or two? A No, I don't know when. I am sorry, I don't have a specific recollection when. Mr. Turk. Have you seen it within the last several weeks? The Witness. Yes. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Prior to the last several weeks, do you have a general recollection of having had any knowledge of Mr. Dale's file being obtained by the current administration? A I have no knowledge of it. I have a recollection. Mr. Turk. Well, okay, if you have a recollection, testify about your recollection. The Witness. Again, I am trying to be precise. I seem to remember producing it to counsel at some point in one of these investigations around the GAO. Possibly Mr. Eggleston. Ms. Comstock. I will make this Exhibit 3. [Livingstone Deposition Exhibit No. 3 was marked for identification.] BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Did you ever review Mr. Dale's -- the contents of Mr. Dale's file? Do you recall looking at the contents of this file, the FBI summaries themselves? A Yes. Q And when did you do so? A I don't recall a specific date. Q Do you know if it was before this year? A I don't recall. Q Do you know for what purpose you reviewed Mr. Dale's file? A I believe it was a response when I was asked to produce documents on the Travel Office that we had. And, again, I think it was the GAO, but I am not positive. Q Have you looked at -- aside from the June 6th notation that is here from Mr. Dale's file, did somebody ask you to obtain Mr. Dale's file on June 6th or thereabouts? A I would have to check with my staff. As I recall, the file was checked out to me. I didn't actually go to Records Management and check it out. As I recall, someone from my staff checked it out for us. But I don't recall June 6th exactly. That is why I am having trouble. I know when we were asked to produce it we did, and I don't know the events after. I could verify that with my staff probably, but I don't know -- assuming they know. Q Did you have any knowledge that the FBI was working -- about the FBI working overtime in December of 1993 to respond to the -- to any large volume of requests that you had made for previous reports? Mr. Turk. Are you asking him if he has any knowledge about the FBI working overtime? There must be 10,000 people with the FBI, and he didn't make requests for these -- BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Did your office make any requests for these reports? Mr. Turk. He already testified he wasn't involved in this, that that was a process that was being done by other people and that he did not review these request forms. But still, the idea that he would be -- have knowledge of the FBI working overtime does seem -- BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Do you have any knowledge of that? Do you have any knowledge? A I don't recall anybody calling me up saying, "Hey this is breaking our backs; why are you guys doing this?" Q Do you have any knowledge of the additional 71 files which were turned over to the FBI from the White House yesterday that have also been -- were mistakenly provided to your office sometime in late 1993 or early 1994? Mr. Turk. Answer that if you can but without disclosing any information you have received from counsel. The Witness. We were given lists, and we produced it. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Who was given a list? A My office was given the list. Q Since these events have occurred, you have continued to be the director of the Office of Personnel Security? A Yes, ma'am. Q And you have still been involved in responding to the Independent Counsel's request and the FBI's request? A Yes, ma'am. Q As well as this committee's request? A Yes, ma'am. Q Has anybody talked to you about recusing yourselves from these matters during this time? Mr. Turk. What would be the basis for asking him to do that? Ms. Comstock. I am asking if anyone has asked him that. Mr. Turk. Your question suggests that there is some reason why somebody could ask him to do that. Ms. Comstock. I am not asking whether it is a reason. I am asking if anyone had asked him to recuse himself at any time. Mr. Turk. She is asking if you suggested that you should not be involved in anything having to do with this matter because -- for any reason. Ms. Comstock. I -- The Witness. What is the question? BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Has anyone talked to you about you not being involved with responding to the inquiries regarding these files and what has been described by the White House as a snafu? Mr. Turk. I think his answer was no, but -- Ms. Comstock. I don't know if I heard that. Mr. Turk. You asked him whether he is been asked to recuse himself, and I think he has made it pretty clear he doesn't understand what that word means. You are asking him has anybody come to you and suggested that you should have no involvement from now on or, from whenever that conversation took place, you should have no further involvement in anything having to do with responding to requests for documents having to do with this issue, whether those requests come from the -- Ms. Comstock. Yes, I would just like an answer to that question, if anyone talked to him. The Witness. No. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q No one has talked to you about that, so no one has talked -- Mr. Turk. You don't need to keep asking as if it was incredible that no one talked about it. That was my objection to that question before. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Are you aware -- how did -- was a list provided to you of these additional 71 files that needed to be provided to the FBI? Mr. Turk. I am sorry; can you read that back? [The reporter read back, as requested.] Mr. Turk. You want to ask that again? BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Did anyone provide you a list of names for the additional 71 files that needed to be turned over to the FBI? A To answer your question specifically, we were given a list and we were told to give them information on what we had on the files. They didn't explain to me what the project was for. Q Do you know where this list of 71 names came from? A No, ma'am. Q Who gave you the list? A Counsel -- Ms. Sally Paxton. Q Is Sally Paxton your current supervisor? I am sorry, it has changed quite a bit over the time. I know we did go through that before. I believe you -- currently, is Mr. Serf still your supervisor? A No. Q Who is your supervisor now? A Tray Schroeder. I believe that is S-C-H-R-O-D-E-R. Q And is he in the Counsel's Office? A Yes, ma'am. Q And he is an attorney? A I believe so. Q And it is Ms. Paxton who gave you the list of 71 names? A To be precise, she gave them to Ed Hughes who works for me. Q And do you know what she told Mr. Hughes about those names? A That we were to find out if we had the files and to notify them if we did. Q And where were those 71 files located? A I believe most of them were in archives, or archived in the White House, to be precise. Q Did you have an independent list of those 71 names? Mr. Turk. What does that mean? BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Did you have a list yourself of those 71 people anywhere aside from a preexisting? Mr. Turk. Of the 71 names? BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Did you have -- this list here, that is an Exhibit 1 of the 300 or so names. That is dated at the top of it "White House Personnel Security Files Staff Prior to 1/20/1993." Do you have any knowledge if that list was in your office at any time? A I believe that it was. Q Had you ever seen this list prior to the past month or so? A I don't believe that I did. DCMN MAYER Mr. Turk. Do you know when this list was generated? The Witness. No. This list was part of a group of archived lists of files, and I believe I have testified that I wasn't aware of this list until I was presented with it. If counsel could help refresh my memory -- BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Do you have any knowledge -- do you have any knowledge of an additional -- 17 other White House file requests that are still to be determined, whether or not they were improperly obtained or not? A I was never -- that is why I didn't understand what you meant by recuse; I don't know anything about the specifics of the project to answer your question. Mr. Turk. No, she is asking you now -- she is reading from the immediate release -- a press release from the Federal Bureau of Investigation, released today by Director Louis Freeh, which you have not had the opportunity to see or read or know anything about. But apparently there is some reference in there to an issue that the FBI is still looking into 17 files which she just wants to know if you know anything about that. If you do, say so; if you don't, say you don't. The Witness. I know from looking at what they asked us to look for that during this general time period of December 1993, files that they asked us to look for that were similar to this, some of them were people that had separated and come back to the White House, and some of them are interns for two sessions and there was a gap between when the name check was requested and when they came back and I was told that when I explained it to him that there were discrepancies between what they asked us to look for and what they stated they looked for, and I believe that is what she is talking about was a part of that group. Mr. Turk. Are you guessing? The Witness. Oh, yeah. Mr. Turk. Why don't you just testify about what you know as opposed to guess? The Witness. Okay, I don't know that for a fact. Mr. Turk. Let's go off the record. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Do you have any knowledge if these 71 files, or 17 other files, if these are within the alphabet, A to G-O? A I don't recall specifically, and I don't recall that it was 71. I would like to state for the record, I don't recall the specific number of files. Q You do recall you were asked to pull an additional volume of files? A By Ms. Sally Paxon. Q Were all of those files located in the archives? A I don't recall if all of them were. Mr. Turk. Were you personally pulling the files. The Witness. No. The second part of the project Mr. Hughes and Mr. Jonathan Dunbar worked on them. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Do you know if any of these files were still in the vault? A I don't recall. Q Would they have been anyplace besides archives or the vault, if you know? A I have no knowledge. Q Would they have been, or were they -- would they have been? Mr. Turk. No, wait a minute. Would they have been? Ask him if he knows whether they were. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Do you know if files at any time would be at any place besides your vault -- Mr. Turk. No, no, you don't -- just ask him, under any circumstances, if there could be a file someplace besides in the vault or in the archives. Is that what you want to ask him? Ms. Comstock. For these files, these mistakenly obtained files, if he knows if they have been any other place besides his vault in his office or archives at any time. Mr. Turk. I believe he has already testified, at least with regard to the Billy Dale file. The Witness. I don't have any personal knowledge of -- you are asking me about these files here now? BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q The list of 330 or 3-whatever is on this list that we are referring to in Exhibit 1. A I don't have any reason to believe they would have gone anywhere outside the office. I don't -- I don't -- I know that outside of official circumstances, meaning I knew the person was going to be Mr. Bush's library lawyer or something, I would not have looked at -- produced these files to anyone outside of my office for any reason. Q When you got the files from the FBI -- when the files came in from the FBI, if I correctly understood your answers to Mr. Goldberg's questions, did you review some of -- do you recall reviewing any of these files in this list? A No, I don't have any recollection of reviewing them when they came in. Q Do you recall -- A I don't think it is possible to know. Q It is possible for you to have a recollection? A I think it is impossible for me to specifically recall -- I can't -- I am trying to sit here and think in my head if there is a file I can recall that came in back in 1993. Q Do you recall ever reviewing James Baker III's file? A I will say it is possible, but I don't recall it and, again, it wouldn't seem improbable or outside of the realm of my duties if someone placed -- I had a box on my desk at that time. If somebody placed files in my box to review, I would assume that, being placed in that box, that these people had some reason for access or being considered for an appointment for a job. Therefore, I would look at it if -- to answer your question directly for Mr. Baker, if it was Mr. Baker and if, in fact, Mr. Baker had a report; and I don't have any knowledge that it was -- had a report attached to it, then I probably would have read it because I would have assumed that is why it is in my box. I would have ticked it off or given it back to anybody -- Mr. Turk. Mr. Livingstone, she asked you, did you have any recollection of reviewing Mr. Baker's file. She didn't ask you for a long recitation of the conceivable possibilities under which you might have. She asked you, do you recall having reviewed Mr. Baker's file. What is the answer to that question? The Witness. No, I don't have a recollection. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Under the process that you described, can you explain how the files ended up in your box? Would they come in from the FBI to your box? A No, ma'am, someone that would receive them would look through them, then give them to me. Q And these people who received them, would that be Mari, Lisa or Ed Hughes? A Or Jonathan. Q Or Jonathan would, in turn, sometimes receive them? A Or Tony. Q Or Tony. Aside from Tony, Mari, Lisa and Ed Hughes and Jonathan would -- A Mari, Lisa, Tony and -- if we are talking about these files, because they weren't here, the other two weren't here. Q Did interns ever receive these files? A I don't believe so, but I don't know for sure. Q And could you describe the process by which a file would end up -- who would put the file in your box? Would it be one of your associates, the people you supervised? A It would be -- one of the people who worked for me, who received it, would determine whether or not I needed to look at it. Q So when these files came in, the people who would have initially -- the possible people who would have looked at these 300 or so files, plus the extra 71, the universe of the people who would have looked at them are you -- is correct? A Yes. Q Mr. Marceca? A Mr. Marceca. Q Lisa Wetzl, Jonathan Dunbar? A No, they weren't here. Q And -- A Ms. Anderson. Q Ms. Anderson. That is the universe of the people who would have been looking at these files? A I guess it is also possible -- not possible, it is probable that Mr. Saunders would look at them, too, because he would help me adjudicate things. Q Now, would these files -- these files had already been adjudicated, wasn't that correct, that they had previously had background investigations? A I wouldn't have personal knowledge of that, but you are asking me something I don't know. Mr. Turk. Here is the problem. You are asking -- he has already told you he did not supervise this project and he wasn't intimately involved in it. You were asking him, all of these, would you have, would somebody else have. Ms. Comstock. I am trying to determine the process. Mr. Turk. You are trying to get him to do what you know he is now willing to do, which you keep getting him to do, which is guess and speculate; and I can't make it any clearer to either the witness or to you, it is totally inappropriate to get him to guess. Now you are trying to get him to guess. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Can you describe the process by which these files came into your office? Mr. Turk. He has already told you that the process by which the files came into the office, two-and-a-half hours ago, to the extent he had knowledge of it. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Did these 300 files come in separately? Mr. Turk. He has already told you, that was someone else's responsibility and someone else was doing it and now you are asking him to go beyond what he knows and speculate. He is tired. I told you we would cut this off at 6:30; it is now 7:10. I want you to wrap up in five more minutes. We are leaving. This man has diabetes; he is not well. I am asking you not to push him to guess about what he doesn't know. If you want to ask him questions about what he knows, that is fine. I believe you are overstepping the bounds here. You are doing this for reasons beyond fact-gathering; that is now apparent. Ms. Comstock. Actually -- Mr. Turk. He has already told you who you can talk to about the process. He has told you he was not in charge of the process and not involved in the process. If you want to find out what the process is, you should talk to the people who did it, not ask Mr. Livingstone over and over and over to speculate and guess about what might have been going on. BY MS. COMSTOCK. Q Do you have any knowledge, files that would be put in your box, whether they would be exclusively files -- whether they were exclusively files of new employees, of background checks, or if they were also of holdovers? Do you have any knowledge of -- A No. Q Do you have any knowledge of -- if there were -- if they -- if it was a different distribution of new hires, as opposed to holdovers, in terms of their files being returned to the FBI? A No. Mr. Turk. We are leaving in 3 minutes. RPTS STEIN DCMN MAYER Mr. Turk. We are leaving in 3 minutes. Ms. Comstock. Back on the record. We are not completed with this deposition, and if the witness does need to take a break, we can take a break, eat dinner; or we can come back tomorrow. But we are going to need to continue the deposition. Unfortunately, the White House has just provided new lists and names and things, even at this late hour, so we are going to have further issues to cover, and we haven't covered the issues. Mr. Turk. We will have to talk about that at some point. I guess we are breaking now. If you want to let us know what documents you are talking about, we can go on, but I was told when we came into this deposition that it would be a very short deposition of a couple hours at the most. We have already been here for three hours. It is 7:15 on Friday night, and we can talk about this later. We are not coming in over the weekend. Ms. Comstock. Okay. We are going to have to continue this deposition in a timely manner. As you know, we did cancel the Wednesday deposition at the client's -- at the attorney's insistence and didn't show up. Mr. Turk. It wasn't that I didn't show up. I called well over an hour ahead. Ms. Comstock. At 3:10 we got the message for a 4 o'clock cancellation. Mr. Turk. Well, I don't know when you got the message. Ms. Comstock. We got the message on voice mail. I can play it for you if you like. [Whereupon, at 7:15 p.m., the deposition was adjourned.]
