COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES WASHINGTON, D.C. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x : In the matter of: : : WHITE HOUSE TRAVEL : DEPOSITION OF MARSHA SCOTT : : - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x Wednesday, June 19, 1996 Washington, D.C. The deposition in the above matter was held in Room 2203, Rayburn House Office Building, commencing at 3:00 p.m. Appearances: Staff Present for the Government Reform and Oversight Committee: Barbara Comstock, Investigative Counsel; Kristi Remington, Majority Investigator; Daniel Hernandez, Minority Professional Staff For MARSHA SCOTT: STUART F. PIERSON, ESQ. DAVIS WRIGHT TREMAINE Suite 700 1155 Connecticut Avenue NW Washington, D.C. 20036 THEREUPON, MARSHA SCOTT, a witness, was called for examination by Majority Counsel, and after having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: Mr. Pierson. Before you begin, Ms. Comstock, I have a statement for the record. At our request the committee provided air fare for Ms. Scott to come here from Chicago and return. It turns out she came last night and did not use the tickets, so I am returning it to the committee unused. Ms. Remington. Are you able to use the second leg of the ticket? The Witness. I could, but -- Mr. Pierson. We are prepared to give it back to you. Ms. Remington. You are more than welcome to use the second -- Mr. Pierson. We would rather not. The Witness. Thanks. Ms. Comstock. I don't know how that is being handled. The Witness. We will give it back to the government. I think they can use it. Ms. Comstock. We are on the record this afternoon for the deposition of Marsha Scott, which will be administered under oath. I will identify who is here today. My name is Barbara Comstock. I am Majority investigative counsel. Kristi Remington; Dan Hernandez with the Minority. The Witness. Dan or Stan? Mr. Hernandez. Dan. The Witness. I can't hear today. Ms. Comstock. I would like to provide you with some background information concerning this investigation and your appearance here. As you know, pursuant to its authority under Rules 10 and 11 of the House of Representatives, the Government Reform and Oversight Committee is investigating the White House Travel Office matter. This matter refers to all events leading to the May 19th, 1993 firings of the White House Travel Office employees and includes all information provided about the White House Travel Office and any employees at the White House Travel Office at any time from January 1, 1993 to the present. Our investigation also encompasses the activities of Harry Thomason, Darnell Martens and Penny Sample while they were at the White House, and it also includes all allegations of wrongdoing concerning Travel Office employees made by these individuals. The Committee investigation is reviewing all actions taken by the FBI and Department of Justice prior to and after the firings, and the investigation includes, but is not limited to, the investigation and prosecution of Billy Ray Dale and all investigations and subsequent reviews of the Travel Office firings by any agency including, but not limited to, the White House Management Review, the FBI Weldon Kennedy/I.C. Smith Review, the FBI OPR Review, the Justice Department OPR Review, the IRS Internal Review, the Treasury Inspector General Review, the GAO Review, and the proposed U.S. House of Representatives "Resolution of Inquiry" considered and voted on in July of 1993. We are reviewing all actions relating to or describing the criminal investigations into the White House Travel Office matter including any subsequent action or activities of any kind as a result of the above-mentioned events by the White House, the Treasury Department, the IRS, the General Services Administration, the General Accounting Office, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Independent Counsel (both Mr. Fiske and Mr. Starr) and the Department of Justice up to the date of this request unless otherwise limited. Do you understand that your answers are to include all information which you have involving these subjects? The Witness. Yes. Ms. Comstock. The committee has been granted specific authorization to conduct this deposition pursuant to House Resolution 369 which was passed by the House of Representatives on March 7th, 1996. Pursuant to Committee Rule 19, Majority counsel and Minority counsel will be afforded an equal opportunity to pose questions to each witness. You are here today voluntarily and not by subpoena; is that correct? The Witness. Yes. Ms. Comstock. And you understand this deposition is under oath, and we have sworn in the witness this afternoon. If you don't understand any question and you need time to confer with your attorney, please let me know, and we can stop. Or if you need to have me rephrase a question, let me know that also. I ask that all objections raised by your attorney be stated for the record with the reason for the objection clearly stated. You will be given a 5-day time frame in which you and your attorney may review your deposition once it has been transcribed and to correct any technical problems that you perceived occurred in the transcription and to clarify any matters. We have an arrangement where we can mail the deposition with a confidentiality agreement for people out of town. Mr. Pierson. You will want to mail that to me. Mr. Hernandez. The Minority has a brief statement that it does the not necessarily agree with the scope of the investigation as outlined by the Majority counsel. Ms. Comstock. Do you have any questions before we get started? The Witness. I don't think so EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Could you give us a brief work history from college forward? A Let me see. Q We are doing this to everybody. A I am 49. That is going to be hard to do. I worked in Head Start as a Head Start teacher; was an interior designer for 14 years. I had my own business for 3 of those 14. I did design remodel construction. I managed a furniture store. I have sold newspaper advertising. I worked for Senator Fulbright for 3 years; gone to school in and out of that time. That is kind of the basics. Q And your position when you joined the White House in 1993? A Deputy Assistant to the President and Head of Correspondence and Presidential Messages. Q And prior to joining the White House in that position, had you worked on the Clinton campaign? A Uh-huh. Q And what position did you have in that campaign? A In the primary I developed field operations and was field director in California; and in the general I was the Northern California campaign director. Q Are you -- you have been living in California prior to -- A About 19 years, uh-huh. Q And when you joined the White House in the Correspondence Office, how long did you stay in that position? A About a year and a half; a little over a year, maybe not quite a year and a half. Q And then what did you do after that? A Then I went -- I think I was under the Office of Public Liaison and then moved to the political office. Q That was all at the White House? A Uh-huh. Q And what is your current position? A I am now in the Chief of Staff's Office until tomorrow or the next day. Then I will be in Chicago in charge of the VIP operations at the convention. Q How long have you known the President and Mrs. Clinton? A Well -- Mr. Pierson. Let's break it down. Let's take the President first. The Witness. I have known the President since I was 18 or 19, and I am a year younger than he is, so however many years that is. I have known Mrs. Clinton as long as they have been married, and I may have met her before they married, I could have. So a long time. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Do you know Harry Thomason? A Sort of. Q Do you know how long you have known Mr. Thomason? A I won't say I really know Harry. I know who he is. I have probably spoken to him twice, maybe three times. That's been since after the Inaugural probably, since we have been up here. I don't think I ever had contact with him prior to working up here. Q So while you were the field director in California, you did not work with Mr. Thomason? A My territory went from Bakersfield up, and he lives in Southern California, and we ran two very distinct and separate campaigns. Q Did you know Craig Livingstone at all during the campaign? A No. Q Do you know who Craig Livingstone is? A Uh-huh. Mr. Pierson. You need to answer orally. The Witness. Yes. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Did you work at all at the White House with Craig Livingstone? A Everybody works with the Security Office, so in that sense, yes, and because I was hiring a large number of staff in the beginning, and they all had to be vetted in, they go through him. So in that sense, yes. Q When did you first meet Catherine Cornelius? A I might have seen her after the election in Little Rock because I went to Little Rock and worked on the economic conference. If she had been in Little Rock at the time, I would have met her then, I would assume, but I don't have a memory of that if I did. I didn't know Catherine prior to. Q And did you come to know Ms. Cornelius during your time at the White House? A Yes. Q And did she work for you at any time? A Yes. Q Could you describe how that came about? A I think it was -- you probably know this better than I. I don't know whether it was before she was in the hospital or after she was in the hospital coming back. That part I don't remember. She worked for me for maybe 6 weeks, maybe 3 to 6, somewhere in there. Catherine was still, I think, real sensitive and real sickly, and she was a sweet kid, and I had an opening, and I thought she could help. Q This was following the events with the Travel Office firings? A Yes, but I honestly don't remember where in that sequence of events in that time period in there, but it's a short period of time. Q I will return to that, and I do have some documents that may assist in discussing that more. How long have you known David Watkins, or do you know David Watkins? A I have known of David for a long time. Does the air seem weird in here to you? My eyes are getting really dry. I don't think -- I think the first time I actually met David was at the New York convention in 1992, but I had known who he was for a long time just because he was a friend of the President and prominent in Little Rock. I think his wife, I think, played tennis with my mother, so I think that is how I knew who he was. Q Your family is in Arkansas? A Little Rock, uh-huh. Q And how long did you know Mr. Foster? A I got to know him better up here. There again, I think I met Vince years and years ago, probably after I was out of high school, because we have a lot of mutual friends, but I don't remember when I actually knew that I knew Vince. Q Who is your direct supervisor in your first position at the White House? A John Podesta. Q Could you describe your -- what the duties of your job entailed and how you -- the duties of your job? A It was at the time I came in, it was the largest -- historically largest department in the White House when I came in. I think there were 11 or 12 offices that fell within that scope, and essentially it was taking care of any of the correspondence in or out, and correspondence in the sense of any packages, letters, phone calls, faxes. We subsequently within the first year set up an e-mail system, which hadn't been in existence until our coming in. The postal service was under me, the volunteer -- I set up a volunteer program in the White House. We initially set up the intern program there. We also had a small sort of little-known agency that has historically been in the White House called an agency liaison that essentially acts as a social service department where people who -- for instance, if they couldn't get a veterans check, and they felt like they had a grievance against the government in some way that something was working, they would call the President or write their President, and we would refer that into this office. Then we would try to track it through the system. Q Sort of caseworking? A Yeah, exactly. Then the rest was just the routine movement of correspondence. Then we created all the messages and proclamations that are read before Congress, all the official-sounding stuff. It was a big department. I think when I came in, there were, if I remember correctly, 100 -- I want to say 36 to 140 people that were on the rolls, and that had been downsized due to attrition from the Bush administration. They just didn't fill jobs as people were leaving to find other jobs. So I inherited a fairly large -- even though "career" is not the proper word -- people who had been working in the White House for many years. So I had what was as close to being called a career staff initially. Q Were there people let go? Was that one the office that has had a large number of people let go in the early days? A Yes, uh-huh. Q And can you describe how that process -- how that came about? A It was one of our commitments during the campaign, subsequent -- I think we started it during the campaign, but it became something that we focused on very, very early that we would do a 25 percent budget reduction and 25 percent staff reduction, so I came in knowing that the size of this department that I inherited was going to be cut. So one of my first jobs was to scale down the budget to reflect this 25 percent budget cut and cut back staff position. So it was sort of a twofold effort that I went about doing. One was restructuring the department to reflect a new President in the way this new President wanted to do his correspondence. And also at the same time I had to factor in that we had to cut the overall amount of the slots for the department. So I eliminated jobs and moved people in different positions and out of positions. Q In that first six months that you were in the new administration in 1993 or thereabouts, do you recall any discussion about using Presidential Inaugural Commission funds to assist the Correspondence Office? A There was a discussion -- let me see if I can remember this. No. I mean, the first answer is no, I don't think there was ever a serious discussion of doing that, but I think there was a lot of discussion. I don't think -- I know we had lots of discussions about how we could take care of the huge volume. I hope this is in there. The President -- Bill Clinton -- in his first year we had six times the amount of correspondence that President Bush had had. So by March of that first year, we were getting approximately 83,000 types of correspondence in on a daily basis. We had a backlog that grew exponentially. We had to have some way to respond to it. Unlike our predecessor, we were committed to answering every letter. That had not been the policy of the Bush administration, nor had it been the policy of the Reagan administration, but it was our policy, so we were looking for ways we could do that. We didn't have the staff to do it, so we were trying to figure out other ways. If that would have come up, it would have come up in that context. Mr. Pierson. I have a statement for the record. I am not sure whether or not to object to that question. It is not clear to me how questions about the expenditure of the Presidential Inaugural Commission funds relates to the Travel Office matter which you have described in your preliminary statement. I will take your representation this is germane, but I have an objection if it's not. Ms. Comstock. Okay, well, I will -- I think as we go into the questioning it may become more apparent. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Were you aware of Mr. Foster or Mr. Thomason working on how to use the Presidential Inaugural funds in any way to assist your office at any time? A Mr. Thomason or Foster? Q Harry Thomason? A No. Q Or David Watkins being involved in any such efforts? A David I know was trying to figure out ways -- David was head of -- what do we call that -- management operations, so we all reported back to him. In other words, staff secretary, I think, was right under David, so that would have been his responsibility to help us figure out how to take care of the backlog. Q And did anybody ever at any time to the present discuss with you any notes that Vince Foster had had about this use of PIC funds for the Correspondence Office? A Has anyone ever discussed that with me? Q Yeah. A No. Q Do you know what the Hope Foundation is? A Is that to do the -- Mr. Pierson. Answer the question. The Witness. No, I am not sure I do. No. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Do you know anything about PIC funds -- Presidential Inaugural Commission, known as PIC. PIC money being used as the Hope Foundation? A No, no. Q When you said you had had discussions with people about how to deal with the backlog, do you recall who those discussions were with? A Our entire staff, we met as a group with all the staff directors, and so we met once a week, and we were always trying to figure out ways to take care of that backlog, so we would discuss that daily. Q People within your office? A Within my office. Then I would have discussed it in my meetings with John Podesta. I know that at some point we had a meeting. I don't know who was there, but David Watkins was at some point discussing it with us. I did a presentation -- Mr. Pierson. Time out. What is the "it"? The Witness. How to get rid of the backlog. Isn't that the original question? BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Yes, who you were discussing the backlog, and what to do with the backlog? A I think I probably talked to everybody in the world because it was plaguing me, and I was looking for some creative ways to do it. Any meeting I would have been in would have been -- my number one priority was getting help on taking care of the backlog. Q Do you recall having any meetings with Harry Thomason in the spring of 1993 about this topic? A I don't know that I have ever had a meeting with Harry. I would say -- I don't think I have ever had a meeting with him. Q Do you know if anyone brought this to his attention? A That I don't know. If so, he never came up with a solution, so -- Q What process did you report to Mr. Podesta? How did that relationship work in terms of reporting? A Sometimes he would come to my office, and we would meet. I would go to his office and meet with his staff. We met irregularly. I think, if I remember correctly, we had scheduled staff meetings, but we didn't always hold them. Just because we said there was going to be a staff meeting doesn't necessarily mean I went or we had the staff meeting. I think we had the regularly scheduled times, whether it was once a week or in the morning, but whatever it was, it was at 9 o'clock in the morning. Q Did there come a time in the spring of 1993 when you learned that the White House Travel Office employees were going to be fired or had been fired, depending on when you learned? A I did not know they were going to be fired. I only knew that they had been fired, I think, from the press. I am trying to remember. I probably saw it on TV or something. Q Had you ever heard of any rumors of wrongdoing in the Travel Office prior to hearing about that report in the press? A Yes. Q And who did you hear that from? A Probably from people on my staff. Like I told you, I inherited career -- what I would have called a career staff, although, you know, there is no such thing in the White House. But I had a large number of people who had been there, and I believe at the time there was one woman who had worked there under Eisenhower, so I had people going all the way back. The people initially -- all the people that had to staff up the Executive Office, which was my suite of six offices, were all from this career pool because they were -- there was a secretarial pool. At the time they were the only people that could take dictation and type, and when we came in the White House, there was a subpoena for all our hard drives. We had no computers, we had typewriters, and not many of my staff typed, so we had great use for this -- for their services. And they talked about it. Q Do you recall what they said? A It was kind of anecdotal stuff. One of the things when I come into any new company or new place is I want to find out who works there, how do you get things done, how do you get your carpet cleaned, how do you get your supplies in the room. We had nothing. When you go into the White House, there isn't literally anything in the room except a desk, a chair, and in my case a computer on the floor and a typewriter. So we had to stock up with everything. So I was asking everybody, and I went around and met everybody on my floor, and my floor was the floor that the Travel Office was on. They were right down the corridor from me. So I made it a point to know everybody on this basement floor, and I also made it a point because my offices were scattered all over the building, and I wanted them condensed into one area, so I was partly looking at office space that we could horse trade over to get. So in the course of this, I went and asked people now who works here, who are they, and in conversations over a period of time, different people had told me that the Travel Office people were really nice, and they'd been there a long time, and they had a great deal going. And I asked what the great deal was. The implication was -- and I apologize, I don't remember the exact words -- was that it was sort of a quid pro quo arrangement, and they did favors for the press, and the press did favors for them. And there were some anecdotal stories. One involved one of the reporters who supposedly brought back these Oriental rugs, these expensive rugs, and didn't want to pay the tariffs on them. So he put them on the press plane, and Billy Dale's office arranged all that, and this was pretty common practice, and if -- the Press Office always had sort of goodies, and I didn't pay much attention to it beyond that. Q Did you talk to anyone else about that? A Probably. Mr. Pierson. You mean other than her staff? BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Other than your staff? A Probably, because I thought that was kind of bizarre, but I don't remember making an issue of it at all, no. Q Do you recall talking to Mr. Foster or Mr. Kennedy about it? A I don't recall that. I could have. Mr. Pierson. Let's make sure we understand what it is you are talking about, anecdotal rumors. Ms. Comstock. Yes. The Witness. I don't recall. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Do you recall if you ever told the President about that? A I doubt if I ever did. Q Or the First Lady? A No, I don't recall. Q In the spring of 1993, did you ever see Harry Thomason at the White House; spring, summertime? A Right somewhere in there. I don't know if I do remember seeing him there. Probably. Q Did you have any knowledge what he was doing at the White House at that time? A If I did, I probably knew it at one time, but no, there was no reason for me to know what he was doing there or not, so I am not sure I would have paid any attention to that because I didn't really know him. Q Did you have any knowledge he was working on an imaging project whereby he was going to bring many folks from California to try and improve the President's public relations? A No, but it was probably a good idea at the time. Q Did you ever hear anybody say firing the Travel Office would be a good press story? A That firing them would be a good press story? No, I can't believe anyone ever said that. Q You hadn't heard any reports of that? A No. Q After the Travel Office employees had been fired, did you talk with anybody in your office about what had occurred? A Probably. Q Do you recall what you discussed with them? A Too long ago. That is old news. Q Do you recall anything that anybody at the White House told you about why they had been fired aside from what was in the press reports? A It is all too jumbled now. No, unfortunately I don't. Q Did you become aware of a management review that was conducted under the auspices of Mr. McLarty, under him Mr. Podesta, that was going to review the Travel Office firings? A I did know that, uh-huh. Q Did you ever discuss that -- Mr. Pierson. Time out. Just so we make it clear, did you know before it was to happen, or did you know afterwards, or do you remember? The Witness. I don't know. I worked for John, so I probably -- if he knew, I might have known. I don't know. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q And placing it in a time frame, the firings occurred on May 19, 1993, and the review was completed on July 2nd, 1993. Do you recall discussing the review at all with Mr. Podesta? A No. Q Were you aware of any unhappiness of White House staffers with the review process? Mr. Pierson. The review process you are talking about -- Ms. Comstock. The review Mr. Podesta was doing. Mr. Pierson. Of the Travel Office -- of the Travel Office, are you aware of people complaining about -- The Witness. About John? BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q About the review Mr. Podesta was doing. A There again I don't -- no, I don't have a specific recollection. Q Following the firings, the issue of Catherine Cornelius being put into the office became a big press issue, I guess it is fair to say. A Put in which office? Q Being put into the Travel Office, at the time that a cousin of the President's was being put into the Travel Office. A She was an incredibly distant cousin. Q I guess we didn't know what level at that point. Did you have any discussions with anyone about Catherine Cornelius' role at the Travel Office? A I am sure I did. Q Do you know who you would have discussed that with? A Probably everybody. I am -- particularly back then was pretty opinionated, so I am sure -- anyone who was talking about it, I am sure I weighed in. Q Do you recall what your opinion was at that time? A I like Catherine. I still think she is a delightful person, and I felt very badly for her being so young, caught up with such a public display, and I was always worried about her, her health, and I didn't like to see anybody in that position. So I didn't like it. Q Did you discuss this with Catherine? A Uh-huh. Mr. Pierson. You need to answer audibly. The Witness. Yes, I did. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q What did Catherine tell you about the events? A I don't know that we talked about the events. We talked about how she felt and what it was doing to her, and I was -- I was less concerned about the details by then. What the press was saying and what others was saying was less important to me, but how it was affecting the people that were being talked about was important to me, and she was a really nice young lady, and she could hardly talk at that time without crying, and so I really tried to help her emotionally. Q And were you aware of any problems that she was having with David Watkins at that time following the firings? A I think Catherine felt probably very alone and very upset, and so I don't remember that she had specific problems with anyone. I think she had problems with everything and everyone, and that is a very lonely feeling when you are only 20 something years of age, and you are singled out by the press as being a malicious person who has been sneaking around doing things. So I imagine she was upset with everybody at that time period. Q Do you recall her discussing who had asked her to undertake the activities that she did in the Travel Office? A You all should have done this back then. I am sure we discussed a lot of things. I apologize, I just don't remember the specifics. Q Do you recall if she ever told you that David Watkins had instructed her? A See, I know that now from having read so much about it. I don't know who I know that from. I don't know that I know that as a fact. I know that as it is stated, and I don't know where I know that. Q Have you talked with Catherine Cornelius recently at all? A Recently being like -- Q In the past several months? A Probably not. I may have seen her in the hall once or twice. We now work in different places. Q Do you recall if she ever told you anything about having problems with Patsy Thomasson in her office? A There again, I don't have a specific memory of a conversation on that. Q Do you have any general recollection? A Well, Patsy worked, came in at some point, and I don't remember when Patsy was hired, but she came in at some point and was David Watkins' deputy and -- I am trying to remember. At one point Patsy and I had offices right next to each other. The problem is what I think I remember anymore I can't attribute to anyone anymore. There has been too much written about it and said about it. It is not -- it wasn't useful information to me, so I haven't kept it. Q Do you recall if Catherine ever told you that Patsy or David were trying to get her to leave her job following the firings? A I believe that to be true, but I don't know -- I don't know that Catherine told me that. Too much -- it has been too long. Too much has happened since then. I am so uninvolved with this issue. This has not been information that I have made any attempt to keep in my head. And my concern was over all of those people involved on an emotional level, less so on the details of what was going on. I wasn't involved in rebuilding the scenario, but I felt very personally involved in trying to help people rebuild their egos around it. So I just didn't deal with those kinds of facts that you want. Q Do you recall if one of the things that Catherine was upset with at the time was that she might be fired or asked to leave the White House? A Sure that scared her. She was a young kid. She didn't know what kind of protection she would have. She didn't know if she would be able to keep her job. I do remember that kind of concern. Q Did she talk to you about that? A She talked about her fears about her life, that she was ruined at a young age, that everyone in the country thought she was one kind of person when she was another, and it has hard to imagine where you go after that when your public humiliation occurs in the White House. It is very hard to think beyond that. She was, I think it is fair to say, terrified about what her life was going to be like, how people would treat her, whether she could get a job, and so the thought of losing a job factored in on the same level as what do I do with the rest of my life now; how do I get my life back? Q Did she ever discuss with you that she was just following directions that individuals gave her? A Here again, these are impressions. I don't remember exact words, but my impression always of Catherine was of a young person, smart, capable, but still a young person, in an organization, and I would just -- knowing Catherine, I would be very surprised that she would have taken actions on her own. So -- I know what has been said, and I am really trying very hard to separate what has been said and what I think I know she may or may not have told me, and I just know -- what I know of Catherine from that time period is that she would have been working within -- she wasn't a rogue, she wasn't a freelancer. She would have been working within some sort of context of a chain of command. That is not even a good word. I don't even know who her immediate supervisor was at the time, but she would have reported to that supervisor. She was a young staff person. She would have told people about what she was doing. Q And do you recall if she ever discussed with you that she was sort of being asked to take the fall for this action when she really hadn't? A I remember Catherine feeling that way. I don't remember her telling me she'd been asked to do that. I know she felt that way, and I think that is a pretty natural feeling, particularly because she was so young, and she didn't have the depth of relationships that other people had because they were older and had been working together and knew each other longer. I think you are fair in assuming that she felt that way. Q Do you recall on July 2nd, when the report was released, Catherine Cornelius was one of the people that was reprimanded for the Travel Office firings and her actions related to that. Do you recall discussing that -- Mr. Pierson. You have two questions. The Witness. Yes, I recall that. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q And in that context do you recall having any discussions with her about that reprimand? A I know that I had discussions with Catherine. I don't recall specific ones, and I tried to -- I actually tried very hard to check in with a lot of people during that period to help them keep their spirits up. But I don't remember a specific -- any one specific conversation. Q Could you recall if you had discussions with other -- any of the other people that had been reprimanded? A Tell me who they were again. Q Mr. Kennedy, and Jeff Eller and David Watkins. A I feel pretty confident that I probably went to each one of those people and told them that I thought it was awful. I was sad for them, was there anything I could do to help, to hang in there, don't get discouraged, this will pass; that kind of stuff. Q Do you recall any conversations that you had with Mr. Foster around this time frame, being the release of the report, early July? A I don't recall any specific conversations, but it would have been something I would have talked about a lot. I would have talked about how people would have felt, how I felt, how sad it was, how wrong I thought it was. I didn't like the way the press was doing it and handling it. I don't remember a specific conversation. Q So you generally recall having conversations with Mr. Foster as well as others? A That is not really fair to say, no. Mr. Pierson. Time out. On this subject or generally? Ms. Comstock. On this subject, on the release of the report and the reprimands. The Witness. I want to -- I am sure that I did talk to Vince about it, but I don't remember a specific conversation. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Do you recall how that type of conversation would have come up with Mr. Foster? Would it have been in the office? A Probably wouldn't have. I probably would have brought it up. Vince was not a man that talked about his business. He -- that wasn't the nature of my relationship with Vince. Q Do you recall were you talking to him as a friend in this context of how -- A I didn't work directly with Vince. There were rare occasions that I ever used him. I think the counsel -- he was not the counsel assigned to my department for any legal issues I might have had, so my conversations with Vince were friend to friend. Q And did he ever tell you any concerns he had about that there would be ongoing investigations about the Travel Office matter? A I don't remember that. That -- no, I don't remember that. Q Can you recall generally at all what he discussed about the Travel Office matter, some general discussions you may have had with him? A It is really important to remember at the time we had no context of ongoing investigations. There weren't investigations going on. We didn't have a history. We didn't know this was the way things were done here. There was no assumption that because something had happened that there were going to be subsequent investigations going on forever. We are almost 4 years later still talking about this issue that never came up. Q At this time, after Mr. Dale had been fired, there hadn't been a criminal investigation started as a result of that, if I could refresh your recollection in terms of investigations. Mr. Pierson. Objection. Ask the question. Don't make a statement. Are you asking whether she knows that to be true -- BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Do you recall having any knowledge about there was a criminal investigation about the Travel Office at this time? A Before Vince died? Q Uh-huh. A When did they start it? I don't know that I knew that. Q When the employees were fired, do you recall there being statements when the employees were fired that the FBI was investigating? A Right, I do remember that. There was a press conference. Q And in that context do you recall Mr. Foster having any concerns about that investigation going forward and what that might mean for the Counsel's Office tour for him personally? A No, I am going to Help you. I don't think you are asking -- I don't remember him being concerned about the investigation going forward. I don't remember that at all. I remember him being concerned about the firings themselves and the reprimand. That is what I remember him being concerned about, but I don't remember a concern about what you just asked me, about having implications on the Counsel's Office or ongoing investigations. Q When you say you recall him being concerned about the reprimand, was that about the reprimand that he might get in the matter? A No, I don't think Vince was ever -- no. He was concerned about the effect it had on the people that were reprimanded, and it was a concern that I shared, and it was something I talked to him a lot about. I believe that while those people may or may not have been involved in it, and I have been very public about this, I felt it was the Chief of Staff's responsibility, and that is where it should have rested. So I discussed that with Vince, that I thought that these four other people were being singled out when it was my opinion that when a mistake is made, if you are head of the office, you take the responsibility for it. Q And did you have knowledge that Mr. McLarty had been involved in the decision-making process of firing employees? A He was the Chief of Staff, so it was an assumption. I don't know if I knew the specifics. Q Aside from him being Chief of Staff, do you have any recollection of knowing any involvement he had in the process leading up to the firings of the employees? A I didn't know anything about the firing of the employees until it was -- until you knew about it probably, so I don't know anything about the process leading up to it. Q After the fact, do you recall learning anything about Mr. McLarty's role? A From the papers, uh-huh. It is really hard. I know that you want to know what I know, when I knew it, and I don't know what I know because I have read too much about it. It has been too long, too much said about it. Q I think in your -- many of your prior statements with Mr. Fiske that had been published, you discussed a conversation you had with Mr. Foster the day before his death. Do you recall if any of these topics were discussed in that? Mr. Pierson. Objection. Let's take one topic at a time so it is clear. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Anything relating to the Travel Office? A The day before Vince died, do I remember anything about the Travel Office? Mr. Pierson. Again, time out. This is July 1993? Ms. Comstock. Yes. Mr. Pierson. This is when you stopped by his office. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Just so I can make the record clear, I think the record is you had stopped by his office on that afternoon; is that correct? A The day before. Q Do you recall how long you were there? A No, there has been some dispute over that. No, I don't. I have always questioned the notion that I was there very long, but I subsequently read that I have been there -- I was there anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour. I don't believe that. I don't think it was a long conversation. Q So you are aware of other reports that you were there for up to an hour. You don't think you were there that long? A Uh-huh. Mr. Pierson. You have to answer audibly. The Witness. Yes, yes, I am aware of those, and I think they are wrong, yeah. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Then it gets back to the original question: Do you recall if you had any conversations relating to any matters relating to the Travel Office? Mr. Pierson. On July 19th? The Witness. I know it. I know it. I got the date. I don't -- I don't recall that. Did I recall it at one time? If you have got it, I don't. Sorry, I don't remember anymore. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Do you recall if he said anything about Mr. Watkins or any problems he was having with Mr. Watkins? A Vince did not talk about -- particularly at work he didn't talk about work, and he rarely, if ever, talked about work, and that isn't how I talked to Vince. I talked to Vince -- particularly at that time I was talking to Vince about how he felt and what was going on in his life personally, how he felt inside, and whether he resolved his issues about trying to rest, and spend more time with his family, and do a good job, and all the public scrutiny he was getting and how he was holding up under that. I didn't go in there that day with an agenda. I think I just stopped by, as I did often, just to say hello because he been away on the week, and I wanted to see if he was okay and had a good time. Like a number of us at that time, we were working incredibly long hours under a lot of stress of trying to get a government up and going with the new administration, and then with all the public scrutiny that was starting to occur, particularly through the Wall Street Journal, and that kind of scrutiny was aimed at some wonderful good friends, so I was concerned about a friend who was for the first time in his life being exposed to some viciousness that he wasn't used to, and I was concerned about it. So I would be surprised if we talked about anything substantive other than me really trying to get him to talk about what he felt, which wasn't easy to do. He didn't like to do that. RPTS COLCHICO DCMN KRISTOFFERSEN BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Were you aware of any disagreements that he was having with Mr. Nussbaum at the time and how to handle -- well, first, any matters related to the Travel Office? A We didn't discuss that. Q Okay. Do you have any general understanding of any disagreements he was having with Mr. Nussbaum at that time? A Here again, I know that that's been alleged. I don't know if I knew that then. I don't know if I talked about it then. I don't know whether I believed it or not. Q Okay. The evening of Mr. Foster's death, I believe, in the other interviews that you have had with Mr. Fiske, you said that you were with Mr. Hubbell that evening. Is that correct? Mr. Pierson. Is that a question? Ms. Comstock. Is that correct? Mr. Pierson. Were you with Web Hubbell the night -- The Witness. Was I with Web the night that Vince died? BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Yes. A Yes. Q And can you just describe briefly -- you don't need to make too long of a record -- what you did that evening? A I had dinner with Web and his wife, two of his kids, and a friend, at least one friend of theirs, maybe two friends of theirs, and we were out to eat when Web kept getting paged, and then finally he came back and he told Suzy and I that we had to go, something had happened. And so then we left. Q And did you go to the Fosters' home that evening? A Eventually, uh-huh. Q And did you talk with anyone about why this had happened? A Everybody that was there, yes. Q And -- Mr. Pierson. Are you okay? The Witness. Yes. You all aren't getting all gunked up in here? Ms. Comstock. My throat is -- The Witness. You are? I am, too. I feel like everything is kind of closing up on me. Mr. Pierson. If you want a break, just say so. Ms. Comstock. Yes. If at any time -- The Witness. Does my voice sound raspy? It feels really raspy. I am going to start going into a spaz attack here, an allergic attack. Ms. Comstock. I would say no, because mine is normally like this. It's all relative. The Witness. Where were we? Mr. Pierson. Was there any discussion that Vince might take his own life at the Fosters' the night he died. The Witness. That's all everybody was talking about. It was just shocking, absolutely shocking. I did not believe it was Vince. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q And after you were at the Foster home that evening, do you recall where you -- what you did after that? A Yes. Mickey Kantor and I left and came to the White House, and then at some point I would have ended up back where I was staying, and then it's a blur. At some point, I came -- I think -- I don't remember -- I to this day don't remember this, but I have been told that I the next day then went and picked up Web and brought him to the White House with me, and then I was with the White House, and then I'm sort of blank until -- I mean, I don't have a -- I don't know when things fit in there. Q Okay. Had you had a -- I guess there was -- there was reported that there was a group of people from Arkansas who got together regularly. A Uh-huh. Q Were you a part of that group that got together regularly? A Uh-huh. Mr. Pierson. You have to answer audibly. The Witness. Yes. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Who did that group include? A It was -- it originally started -- I think the very first time we did it, it was probably myself, Nancy Hernreich, Vince and Web, Bruce probably, Bruce Lindsey, and I think on that very first night Sheila Anthony, and I think the very first time we ever did that -- and I could be wrong about that -- and the very first time we did it, we went to Two Quails Restaurant. Q It's a great restaurant. A Yes, the different chairs and tables. We had a great time, so we decided we would do this, we decided to make it a regular thing. We did it on Tuesday nights, and we all worked 6 and a half, 7 days a week. We never got out of the offices before 10:00, ever. So we decided we would one night a week -- promised we would all get together and we would go have dinner together and, granted, it would be around 9:00 or 10:00. And so that's how it started. Now, to that -- anyone that wanted to come could come, and we particularly reached out to the Arkansans who, I think, felt the most alien in this environment up here. And so Deb Coyle, who was Bruce Lindsey's secretary, she became the one that had to organize it because she was the most organized of all of us. And then as spouses came, they got included. I think the only non-Arkansan that we would periodically let in would be John Emerson, and we just sort of adopted him. Sort of pathetic. We took him on, just -- you know, it was just -- then -- the intent was to get out of here at least one night a week, make sure that everyone ate. It was fun. So we ate and they drank. I don't drink. I am always the designated driver. Q And was Mr. Foster a part of this group sometimes? A Yes. Q And the week or so before, do you recall if he had been a part of this Tuesday night group or if you had gotten together? A Well, as it got -- it got harder and harder to get people together. At one point it got too big, and then we went back to our original little group, became rather cliquish, we did. It was harder and harder to get people to leave. Vince -- looking back on it after that, I realized that I wished -- I wish we had paid more attention to the fact that it was harder and harder to get him to come do it. He always had something else that he had to do. Q Did you ever discuss with Mr. Hubbell any of the problems that Mr. Foster had relating to any of the Travel Office matters? A I would have discussed anything and everything in my own way with Vince or Web, and my own way was, I knew nothing about any facts of anything; I would have just had an opinion on it. Now, how or -- how they would have responded to that usually was just to let me run off at the mouth. I don't have a memory of a conversation. I mean, you probably have serious conversations with your friends. I didn't with mine. I mean, we were pretty loose. We didn't talk -- Q Now, do you ever recall anyone, Mr. Hubbell or Mr. Foster's sister, ever saying -- telling you that Mr. Foster said something to the effect of, you wouldn't believe our own people would lie to us, and this would be a statement that he made in reference to the Travel Office matter? A Who is he referring to as "our own people"? Q He said something -- actually, it was reported, I think, by Mr. -- Mr. Anthony. Beryl Anthony had said that several times in the weeks prior to Mr. Foster's death, that Mr. Foster said to him, "You wouldn't believe our own people would lie to us." Do you have any knowledge that you can put that in the context of what that might mean? A No. Q Do you know of any of the group from Arkansas that Mr. Foster may have been concerned about wasn't telling him the truth about anything relating to the Travel Office or might -- A Was Vince -- I am not sure I understand you. Q Was there anybody -- I guess in terms of if you were to think of "our people" as people from Arkansas or people that he knew, "our own people," do you know of any people from Arkansas who -- A I would assume he meant Arkansans with that. Q And I am not assuming that I know what he meant by that. A Okay. Q Whether it was "our people," Democrats; "our people," people in the White House; or "our people" -- Mr. Pierson. American citizens. The Witness. Okay. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q So if you have any knowledge of what he meant by "our people" or any people that you know of that he was concerned about that might be lying to him. A I mean, I know just what the note said, that they found in his briefcase that he thought the FBI was lying. That's the only time I have ever heard that. And I think in that note he also alluded to something with the Usher's Office. Q Do you know if he ever referred to the FBI as "our people"? A I don't have a clue what he meant by that phrase. Mr. Pierson. If, in fact, he said it. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q I mean, did he ever say anything like that to you? A No. Q Did you think -- A No, I have never heard that phrase before. Q All right. I just want to return briefly to the White House Project matter which was -- actually, it's the imaging project that we were talking about earlier with Mr. Thomason. A The one I don't know anything about. Q Yes. This is the document which -- the direct Bates stamp number is on here, but it's CGE 1461 through 1468. A I have got to get my glasses. Q All right. Mr. Pierson. Do you want her to see first whether she is familiar with the document first, or do you want her to read it? Ms. Comstock. I thought she wasn't. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q But if you want to look at it? A No, I have never seen this document before. Q Directing your attention to the second to the last page of the document, it is discussing the correspondence department. A Okay. Mr. Pierson. And this is would be Bates stamped 1467? Ms. Comstock. Yes, CGE 1467. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q And this document, for your knowledge, is a document that has been identified to us by the White House as having been prepared by Harry Thomason in dealing with various departments in the White House. And I was just wondering if you want to review that correspondence section and see if that refreshes your recollection as to any work that you might know of that Harry Thomason was working on in this regard. A Good suggestions. See, at --? Mr. Pierson. The question to you is: Does this refresh your recollection about any knowledge you may have had about the so-called imaging project? The Witness. No. Mr. Pierson. Okay. The Witness. It does not. Thank you. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Directing your attention to the second paragraph, it is discussing the danger of destroying mail. A Yes. Q Do you know what mail -- anything about mail being destroyed at that time? A That was routinely done in the Bush administration, and we prided ourselves on doing it differently, and we -- when I found out that that had been done and it was just a matter of course that it had been done; in fact, starting in August of President Bush's last year, they rarely answered any mail because they had a problem -- they had a policy of not answering anything that was critical to the President; they wouldn't answer those letters. Most of them became critical after August. So we determined not to do that. So there was a precedence in the White House mail operation, correspondence operation, for destroying mail. I assume that that is what he is referring to. At the same time, I am not aware of anything that Harry was working on, but I had asked various people to come into the White House and study the Correspondence Department to come up with a better way that we could do it. We needed to streamline. And so I had a task force of people, Government employees, and they were from five different departments, that were conducting a review of my department at my request. And I would assume some of this information that's contained in here would have come from, if Harry was doing this, some project. He or his people, I would hope, had been talking to some of those people and talking to people to find out about -- Mr. Pierson. Do you know that they did? The Witness. I don't know that they did, but I would assume they would have. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Okay. In the last sentence in that second paragraph, it discusses destroying the name -- destroying the mail, and then the last thing it reads is, "It is a name also lost to the database for the next campaign." Were you aware of any databases that were being maintained at the White House? A Well, there was no database at the White House at all, and that shows Harry's lack of knowledge of the rules of the White House. Mr. Pierson. If, in fact, this came from Harry? The Witness. If, in fact, it came from Harry. I mean, if this was a memo written from Harry -- thank you -- then he is very incorrect in assuming that anything that we produce at the White House can be used in a campaign, and since he didn't work for the White House, that's probably why he didn't know that. But all of us that worked there were very cognizant of the fact that we were not in any way allowed to, encouraged to, and, to my knowledge, no one ever did anything to create any kind of campaign context or database. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Okay. Thank you. I will just make that Exhibit 1. [Scott Deposition Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.] The Witness. Okay. Who is that memo written to? Ms. Comstock. It didn't have a "to." It just sort of appeared. The Witness. Maybe it never went anywhere. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Do you know? A No, I don't know. Q I guess it was delivered to various people. Mr. Hernandez. An hour is up. I don't have any questions at this point, but do you need a brief break? The Witness. Yes. Ms. Comstock. All right. We will take a break. [Recess 4:20 to 4:22.] Ms. Comstock. This is CGE 38443, which is a memo to Vince Foster from Marsha Scott, I guess, CC'd to John Podesta. Mr. Pierson. Dated May 5, 1993. Ms. Comstock. Thank you. I am trying to find my copy. Mr. Pierson. Are you going to make this Exhibit 2? Ms. Comstock. Yes. [Scott Deposition Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.] BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q This is regarding financing of correspondence projects. I was wondering if this connects up at all with the previous document we were discussing or if you know if any of these ideas you generated were being worked on by Vince Foster? A They weren't. Well, the first thing you asked me, does this relate to the first? Q Yes. A Not to my knowledge. No, this is one of my ideas that didn't go anywhere, one of the many things that no one paid any attention to me about. Mr. Pierson. But her last question was: To your knowledge, were any of these ideas being worked on by Vince Foster? And the answer was? The Witness. No, they were not. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q You have no knowledge of if anyone was trying to use any kind of independent financing to work on this project? A No. This project never went anywhere. No. Q All right. This is Exhibit 2. This is CGE 29028 through 30, and it's a letter to Bill Burton, who was in the Chief of Staff's Office. And it was from Catherine Cornelius' lawyer, and it was regarding -- it is about the time, I guess, that Ms. Cornelius switched over to your office. And I was wondering -- I guess directing your attention to the second page there? A Okay. Mr. Pierson. Let me make sure the record is clear. It is dated August 6th, 1993? Ms. Comstock. Yes. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q It is a letter to Bill Burton from Steve Braga, who is an attorney for Catherine Cornelius. A Uh-huh. Q And in the letter, Mr. Braga discusses conversations that Catherine had about coming to your office. I was wondering if you have any recollection of such conversations? Mr. Pierson. Let's talk about specific portions of the document, which is 3 pages long. Do you have a specific reference in the document? BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Well, actually before -- I mean, I just wanted to give that to you for a context. A Okay. Q But maybe before we go into the document, if you recall, you know, having conversations with Catherine about coming to work in your office? A I don't recall specific ones, but yes, I -- in fact, I think it was my idea that she come work in my office. Q Okay. Was that because she had been asked to leave the Travel Office? A I don't know that she had been asked to leave. I knew she had been gone and she was on medical leave, and I don't know that Catherine was ever asked to leave the Travel Office. Was she? Mr. Pierson. Let her ask the questions, and you give the answers. That's the way this works. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q We will chat later. A I am sorry. I don't know that she was asked to leave, but when she was coming back, I had talked to her a couple of times to see how she was feeling, and I had -- she was very worried about what she was going to do, and I had said, "You can come work for me." Q Okay. Was this -- was she -- did you have any knowledge of if she felt that people were trying to push her out at this time? We were talking about before maybe a little bit more generally, and I was wondering if in this time frame -- A I think Catherine felt that people would not want her around because she was hot. I mean, her name drew attention. She had been in the press constantly. Q Okay. Were you aware of her attorney trying to seek a higher salary than apparently you might be able to provide for her in the position that you had offered her? A Was I aware of that? Q Why don't I ask, were you aware of any salary -- efforts to get a higher salary, that she was trying to deal with the Chief of Staff's Office trying to get a higher salary than you were able to offer? A Only vaguely, but I don't have any specific -- here again, I know all of this, but I don't know if I know it from then. I don't know. I don't even know what we settled on. Q And you had said that she stayed in your office about 6 weeks or so? A I don't know that. That was my guess. Q It was a brief time that she was in your office? A Very brief, uh-huh. Q And do you recall why she left your office? A Let me think. She was in -- I think I put her in Agency Liaison, which was the case worker office. She may have -- she may have left because she then went to work in the Scheduling Office, which was closer to what she had done before. Q In the campaign? A Uh-huh. I don't know what Catherine's background was prior to the campaign, but that was the group of people she knew best, and I think that she -- I think that's where she went. Let me see if I can remember this. I think Catherine -- I think she appreciated getting to work -- do what we were doing, but I think it was too hard on her emotionally because a lot of the case work was very emotional. And I think she missed younger people. I don't think she was used to sitting, poring over documents like that. You may find that hard to believe, but -- Q So exciting. Okay. Directing your attention to this letter, on the bottom of the paragraph Mr. Braga says, "First, there can be no doubt" -- Mr. Pierson. Which paragraph? Ms. Comstock. I am sorry. The last sentence in the bottom of the page where "first" is underlined. Mr. Pierson. Paragraph number 2, sentence beginning, "First"? Ms. Comstock. Yes. "First, there can be no doubt that Catherine was the only 'victim' of the internal review of the administration's handling of the White House Travel Office." It goes on to discuss her adverse personnel action, and then the end of that paragraph says, "She has nowhere publicly complained to this end and/or told her side of the story. She has instead admirably chosen to remain silent as a complete team player in an administration trying to put this affair behind it." Do you have any knowledge as to what Ms. Cornelius was staying quiet about in regard to the Travel Office? A That -- no. But that isn't how I read that. Q Okay. Do you have any knowledge as to what this might -- as you read this, what you think this refers to? A I think what it means is that she was not literally complaining to anybody, that she had accepted this reprimand and it was causing her a lot of internal grief and personal grief, but she was doing nothing about it. She had not gone to anyone. She had not talked to anybody to say, "I am just a young kid, and I am scared, and I want help." So I don't -- I don't read that in the bigger sense that she is staying quiet because she knows something. I think it means she is a person who has been reprimanded and she is not publicly complaining about that, even though she thinks that it was unfair and unjustified. Q Were you ever aware of her having any conversations with the President about any of these problems that she was having? A No, but I know that she probably talked to him. Q All right. Did she ever ask you to talk to the President about any of these problems that she was having? A I talked to the President about her working for me. Q And can you describe what you discussed? A Just that, that I -- that I wanted her to work for me and I wanted him to know that I was going to try to take care of her as a friend. I really, really was concerned about Catherine's emotional state, and I wanted her to be in a safe place where she would have people who nurtured her and cared about how she felt. Mr. Pierson. This was in August, after Vince's death? The Witness. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. This was in the context of this time frame right here that I am talking about. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q All right. Were you aware of -- directing your attention to the third paragraph at the bottom of the second page. Mr. Pierson. The third numbered paragraph? Ms. Comstock. Yes, number 3, where it says number 3. Mr. Pierson. Beginning, "Anyone who has read"? Ms. Comstock. Yes. Actually, the middle of that paragraph discusses Patsy Thomasson has engaged in repeated instances of unethical, possibly illegal, and certainly harassing conduct towards Catherine. Do you know of any such conduct that Catherine ever told you about? A That's how a lawyer would say it. Let me see what I remember. I remember -- I don't remember specifics, but Catherine and Patsy did not get along, and so anything Patsy said to Catherine, Catherine took it in the harshest light. I think it's really important to remember that Catherine was a very fragile young person at this time and what she may or may not have said to anybody about what may or may not have happened has to be viewed in the context of, this is a kid that almost had a complete breakdown, and some would judge that she did, both physical and emotional. And I think it's really important to remember her -- and I don't mean to harp on her age, but she was a young person from a small town in Arkansas with tremendous pressure and severe medical problems, and all of this was very, very difficult on her, and she talked and acted like someone who was on the verge of complete collapse. So I viewed then and still view with great skepticism any actions she may or may not have attributed to somebody else, and I also know Patsy to be sometimes a very gruff, blunt, hard-talking boss, and I can see how she and Catherine would have been like oil and water. Q Now, but in reference to anything illegal that Patsy Thomasson would have done in terms of harassing or unethical? A Again, that's a lawyer's comment. I have -- Mr. Pierson. The question to you is: Do you know of anything? The Witness. No, no. No, I don't, and I don't -- that's just a lawyer's interpretation of what she may or may not have said. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Were you aware of Ms. Thomasson being directed by anybody to get rid of Catherine or do anything about Catherine? A No. I know that's been alleged, but I'm not -- I wasn't aware of that, I don't think. Q Do you recall if you resolved these salary issues with Catherine and how they were resolved? A Do. Mr. Pierson. Objection. Let's define what you mean by "salary issues." I am not certain this witness has testified to a salary issue. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q The first page of this August 6th letter discusses that you had advised Catherine that she could be compensated at $45,000. Do you recall any salary disputes there and how they were resolved? A Salary levels were determined by me in theory and acted on by either John Podesta or it would have gone up to -- who was head of personnel then? Q Mr. Lindsey? A I don't know if it would have gone to him or whether it went straight to -- I apologize. I don't remember. It would have been resolved at a level higher than mine, and that was -- that wasn't an issue to me. Q Okay. A It got resolved because she got hired. So I just don't remember. Whatever we hired her at meant it had been resolved. I didn't have an issue with that. Q Do you have any knowledge as to what Mr. Burton's role was in resolving any of this or dealing with Catherine? A If he was involved in that, it would have been because he worked directly for the chief of staff and he acted in the capacity of being the chief of staff's chief of staff. So he would have -- if he was involved -- I don't know that he was, but if he was, it would have been perfectly proper for him to have been involved in this in some way, acting on -- for the chief of staff. Mr. Pierson. Is this Exhibit 3? Ms. Comstock. Exhibit 3, yes. [Scott Deposition Exhibit No. 3 was marked for identification.] BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q In the fall of 1993 and into early '94, were you aware of any problems that David Watkins was having with Mr. McLarty or with anyone in the White House? A The fall of '93/'94? That was -- give me a context of something that it happened. The dates mean nothing. Q No. I was just wondering if, following Mr. Foster's death, if you recall any problems that Mr. Watkins had with any -- with Mr. McLarty or any management at the White House? A Had anything happened? I mean, had the -- Q Did he have any work problems, any disagreements with -- Mr. Pierson. That you can place in time? BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q That you know of? A No, I don't know. Q All right. The presidential personal correspondence, that's all handled by Mrs. Huber in her office? Is that separate from the correspondence that you did? A Yes and no. Mrs. Huber handled Mrs. Clinton's -- well, Mrs. Clinton's personal correspondence -- Mrs. Huber did not handle Mrs. Clinton's personal correspondence; it was Millie Alston that did. Millie, Caroline Huber and Trey Schroeder and one other person -- I don't remember who it was at the time -- all worked over in the East Wing offices. They were within the Department of Correspondence. Mrs. Clinton's other correspondence was handled by one of the divisions within my department. Personal correspondence for both of them fell under my department, but they worked more directly to their principals. In other words, Trey Schroeder wrote for the President, and so he worked directly with the President and Nancy Hernreich. Millie Alston worked for Mrs. Clinton. She worked directly with Mrs. Clinton on the correspondence or whomever Mrs. Clinton -- it might have been Maggie she worked directly with. Does that answer your question? Q Well, maybe. I am just showing the witness CGE 39294. It's a letter to the First Lady from David Watkins. I was wondering if you had ever seen this letter before? Mr. Pierson. May 3, 1994? Ms. Comstock. May 3, 1994. It is on the personal letterhead of Mr. Watkins. It's a handwritten note to -- that says, "Hillary," and then it discusses the GAO report, and then it's signed by Mr. Watkins. The Witness. No. I have never seen that. Mr. Pierson. Did you get that answer? The Court Reporter: Yes. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Do you know if something like this would have gone through your office at any point? A No. Q Or would that have gone directly over to Millie, or how -- or if you have any knowledge how it worked? A There were -- Q If it were inner office mail? A I don't have a clue how David would have gotten a message to Mrs. Clinton. Q You have never seen this letter before? A No. No. Mr. Pierson. Is that Exhibit 4? Ms. Comstock. Yes. [Scott Deposition Exhibit No. 4 was marked for identification.] The Witness. Was that mailed? BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q All we have is this form, so I don't know. May 3rd, 1994, was the day after the GAO report had been issued on the Travel Office matter. Do you recall any discussions in the spring of '94, after that report had become public, about anything having to do with any representations that David Watkins had made about the First Lady's role in the Travel Office firings? A I don't know that I remember that from then, no. Q And you are familiar with the incident where Mr. Watkins took a helicopter and went to the golf course? A Uh-huh. Mr. Pierson. You have to answer orally. The Witness. Yes. BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Were you supposed to go on that trip that day? A Yes. Q Could you describe what that was about? A David had come to me saying that he -- it was a twofold purpose. He really wanted the President and the First Lady to start going to Camp David more, one, because it was a facility that he knew they would really enjoy, and he felt that it was real important for the morale of the facility people themselves that -- we were -- I think, if I remember correctly, we used it less -- at that point in time, we were not using it very much. And it's really a nice place, and he wanted to increase use of the facility. They were also doing some refurbishment there in some of the areas that needed it. So he wanted me to go out and see Camp David, which I had never seen, so that I would then come back and talk to the First Lady and the President about how wonderful it is and think of more creative ways that they might use it and that Chelsea would enjoy it. He was looking for an ally to increase use of the place, and one of the ways that he thought that he could entice the President to want to use it more was to tell him how great the golf courses were around there. So this particular time he was going to go, he was going to go and check out the facility and he was going to check out the golf courses. David is a very good golfer, the President aspires to be a great golfer, and I play golf and have played golf with the President. And so David thought, let's do it, let's go out there, do as he -- I think he may have called it a reconnaissance mission, so we can check everything out. We will come back, and then you go in there and convince the President; you work on him on the golf side and then talk to Hillary about how great a place it will be for Chelsea, and we can get them to come out there more. And that was the reason why he wanted to go do it. Q All right. And were you aware of, after the problems that arose out of that trip, Mr. Watkins' response internally about that matter? A I am not aware, and I don't know what he said about it. I have never known officially what his response to that was. Q Did you ever explain to anybody why you were going to be going on it? A Yes, sure. Q Who did you talk to? A Probably -- I think John Podesta called me. I think he was the one that called me to tell me that that had happened with David. I think that's how I first knew about it, was John called me to tell me. And I laughed. I said --, "I said I was supposed to be on that trip." I said -- I was sick; I was home with the flu. And I had -- I had actually counseled David on not going on helicopters, and I had talked to -- he had told me that he was going to take the helicopter. And I said, "Can you do that?" I said, "Is that permitted?" And he said, "They have to routinely be taken out, and they have to do" -- "they have to get in so many hours anyway. This will just be part of their regular training." So I think I told John all of that when he called me, because I thought -- I thought he was joking at first. I thought this was -- this was silly. Q All right. So Mr. Podesta handled some kind of internal look at that matter, if you know? A John was -- I think the reason why John called me is because John was my immediate supervisor. I don't know that it had anything to do with the context of investigating anything. We -- to my knowledge, we were not knee deep in investigations at that point. Q And were you aware of any other problems that Mr. -- around the time of this helicopter incident, were you aware of any other internal problems that Mr. Watkins was having within his office? A You mean with people that worked for him? Q Yes, that's what I mean. A I don't know if I was or not. David is a difficult man to get along with sometimes, so -- I don't know that I remember anything specific, no. Q Were you aware of any efforts to fire him or to move him out of the White House prior to the helicopter incident? A I think "firing" is not a good -- I wouldn't use that word. Q Or easing him out? A I would -- I think that -- let's see. What time frame was that? I can give you a better answer. Q May of 1994. A Okay. So he had been there a year and a half? Q Yes. A I know that David was frustrated. That was not the kind of work that he had done pre -- that's not fair. He had done that kind of work. I don't think that was the kind of work that he necessarily enjoyed and where it played to his strengths, and so I was aware that he was tired of doing that particular job and that he was probably interested in doing something else. And I think when someone is feeling that way, others that they work with are probably feeling that way, too. I do not know of anyone talking about any kind of efforts to do either of the things you suggested, which was to fire or move him out, but I think at that point he was very burned out and tired and wanting to do something different, and it probably reflected with those who worked around him. Q In this letter that we were looking at, the May 3rd, 1994, handwritten letter from Mr. Watkins, Exhibit 4, the last sentence in it says, "I have always known who my client is." A Uh-huh. Q Did he commonly refer to the President or First Lady as his clients? A Those of us who work in retail always do. I do. I mean, we come -- David and I both share a background in sales, and we are PR people, and so, unlike the jargon of Washington, we talk in terms of client services and the client. My assumption on reading that is, that's what he is referring to. Q Okay. And were you aware of Mr. Foster referring to the President and the First Lady as "the clients" in a legal context? A No, I am not aware of that. Q Are you at all familiar with the memo that surfaced earlier this year by Mr. Watkins discussing the Travel Office matter? Mr. Pierson. This is the memo he has described himself as a CYA? Ms. Comstock. I think he described it as a soul cleansing memo. Mr. Pierson. He also described it as a CYA. The Witness. The memo that wasn't sent? Ms. Comstock. I don't know that he has described it that way. I think others may have. The Witness. Are you asking me if I knew about it at the time? BY MS. COMSTOCK: Q Yes. A I didn't. Q If you had any knowledge of that memo prior to it being released? A No, I didn't. Q Did he ever describe to you any of the sentiments in that memo? Specifically, did he ever discuss with you the First Lady's role, any role that the First Lady had in the Travel Office firings? A I don't remember him ever doing that, no. Q Or did he ever discuss with you any pressure that he had felt by Mr. McLarty to fire the Travel Office employees? A I remember sort of oblique references to pressure on David's part, but David felt pressure in general. I have -- I do not remember him ever saying Mack or anybody else was telling him to fire them. I think that he felt -- God, I don't even know if I remember this right, so maybe I am blabbing. He knew it was an area that had to be cleaned up, and he wanted to fix what he perceived to be a problem, and so he felt pressures in that, in that David's speed at which he did things sometimes was different from the speed others might have wanted of him. He just had a way of fixing a problem that might have been different from others, and so in that sense I think that he felt pressure. But, no, I did not hear specifics. Q And were you aware of anything having to do with any Secret Service problems that had been raised by the President or the First Lady in the spring of 1993? A I am aware of the press report of a lamp incident, and I am aware of when Mrs. Clinton or her -- or someone dismissed one of the ushers. That's not Secret Service. Just generically. Q So you are only familiar with -- familiar with it from the press accounts of those matters? A And in a more generic way of, we were all -- none of us came from an environment where you had bodyguards or guards around, and it was -- it was very confining, and it felt restrictive, and so all of us, meaning that -- that is a topic that would come up in discussions of things like, well, we would like for the President to be able to go across the street to the Blair House or go have dinner out. We talked about having him come with us some night on our Tuesday night group, just in generic. Then it would always be, he can't do that because of the Secret Service, and it was like the Secret Service were the bad guys because they were there to keep us from doing anything fun. But it was not -- not serious, other than just the -- I think probably every administration comes in, and unless they have been a Vice President before and have lived through one of these cycles, you come in and you don't know how to adjust to people who seem to be staring at your every move. And those guys stare at you, unblinking. So it's a bit unnerving to get used to. So we talked about it. We sort of joked about it. It was kind of a general -- Q You weren't aware of any problems that had been expressed to David Watkins or any management at the White House about the Secret Service? A Yes, but I don't know when I knew that. I don't know -- I don't know how I knew it. I mean, it seemed oppressive. It seemed too much. Everybody seemed to be trying too hard to do too much, the Secret Service included. We didn't know how they operated. They didn't know how we operated. So I think everybody was bumping into each other, so we all complained about each other. So I am sure -- and I was aware that people had complained to David about it. I don't know who those people were. I mean, I am not aware that the President said, David, the Secret Service is bad, or that Mrs. Clinton said that. I think in general, those of us who came in found it difficult. And I know that the President and the First Lady, they are young. They have got -- had a young child. This was -- it's unnerving to have people following you around constantly. So I -- you know, my recollection is, we all joked about it, complained about it, and groused about it. And we have gotten over it, and we work well with them now, and so we will advise whatever next administration -- however long away that is -- that, get over it quickly; they are really -- they will be okay. Q They are nice guys? A Yeah. Q And women? A Yeah. Q Okay. I think we are just about done here. A Good, because I am almost through with this glass of water and will have to take a break again. Q All right. Do you recall having any discussions with anybody at the White House about Billy Dale's trial or anything connected with Mr. Dale's trial? A I don't remember, no. I don't think so. I don't think I ever had any conversations about that trial. Q Okay. Ms. Comstock. Okay. I believe that's all I have. Thank you. The Witness. Okay. [Whereupon, at 5:00 p.m., the deposition was concluded.]
