COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES WASHINGTON, D.C. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x : In the matter of: : : WHITE HOUSE TRAVEL : DEPOSITION OF : M. DENNIS SCULIMBRENE : : - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x Monday, July 15, 1996 Washington, D.C. The deposition in the above matter was held in Room 2203, Rayburn House Office Building, commencing at 1:45 p.m. Appearances: Staff Present for the Government Reform and Oversight Committee: Barbara Olson, Chief Investigator; Kristi, Remington, Investigator. For MR. SCULIMBRENE: RICHARD A. HAUSER, ESQ. BAKER & HOSTETLER 1050 Connecticut Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20036 Ms. Olson. We are on the record this morning for the deposition of Dennis Sculimbrene, which will be administered under oath. I would like to identify the people who are present in this room today. We have Mr. Sculimbrene, with his private attorney Dick Hauser. We also have Laurie -- I mean we also have Kristi Remington and Barbara Olson of Majority staff. Minority staff is not present today. I have made several telephone calls to Minority staff this morning, as well as this afternoon, to inform them of this deposition. Minority staff has represented that they thought that this deposition was going to happen on Tuesday. The facts, as I understand them, are that approximately one week ago, this deposition for Mr. Sculimbrene was confirmed with Mr. Hauser. At that time notice was sent out to Minority staff that it would be on Monday. A later notice was sent out to Minority staff that on Monday not only would Mr. Sculimbrene's deposition occur, but also we would have Gary Aldrich's deposition. On Thursday of last week, the Minority complained that they had not received a full 3-day written notice of Mr. Aldrich's deposition. At that time, I took down a list, crossed out the Monday notice, and put Tuesday's date on the Monday notice. The effect of that was that they then had notice for Dennis Sculimbrene for Monday and Tuesday for deposition. On Friday, Laurie Taylor of our office clarified with Mr. Dan Hernandez that the deposition would occur at 1:00 on Monday of Mr. Dennis Sculimbrene. Mr. Hernandez spoke on the phone with me approximately 15 minutes ago and denied that he could recall Laurie Taylor's conversation to him on Friday. Because of that and because of representations by staff that they not only received the 3-day written notice as well as an oral clarification of Mr. Sculimbrene's deposition, we are going forward. Mr. Sculimbrene has taken the time out to come up here. His private attorney has arranged his schedule to come up here for this deposition, and I have also made representations that if there are any questions by Minority, they would be sent by interrogatory to be answered. Obviously his attorney needs a sufficient period of time to answer those interrogatories. I have also made representations to Mr. Sculimbrene and his counsel that we will share a copy of this deposition with the Minority so that they will have the benefit of the questions and answers that occurred today. With that, I asked Mr. Sculimbrene and his counsel if they objected to conducting this deposition on a voluntary basis. By "voluntary" meaning that if, in fact, at some point it was discovered that there had been an improper notice, and therefore that under Rule -- strike that -- under Resolution 369 we did not have authority to subpoena Mr. Sculimbrene in for this deposition, would they still be willing to conduct this as a voluntary interview under oath for purposes of our investigation? And I would ask you if you are willing to do this deposition regardless of whether it's under House Resolution 369 or as a voluntary interview pursuant to the Chairman's request to the FBI that you be interviewed in the White House Travel Office matter? Mr. Hauser. For the record, and also in response to your question, we are appearing, it is my understanding, at a request that was made to the FBI for Mr. Sculimbrene to make testimony available to the committee as part of its investigation. And we are here, and as I say, in response to that. Both of us, as you also indicated, had arranged our schedules to be here today, and from our standpoint we are prepared to go forward. I have discussed this with my client, if that is acceptable to the committee staff and to the committee. Ms. Olson. Thank you. At this point, I would like to read an opening of our deposition to give you some background concerning the general investigation and your appearance here. The White House Travel Office matter has been defined to include all events that lead to the May 19th, 1993 firings of the Travel Office employees. It also includes information which was provided about the White House Travel Office and any employees of the White House Travel Office at anytime from January 1, 1993 to the present. The White House Travel Office matter encompasses the activities of Harry Thomason, Darnell Martens and Penny Sample at the White House, as well as all allegations of wrongdoing concerning the Travel Office employees. The committee's investigation includes reviewing actions taken by any division or field office of the FBI and the Department of Justice prior to and after the firings, as well as issues relating to the White House's receipt of FBI background investigations on prior administration officials. The investigation includes, but is not limited to, the prosecution, investigation in the United States V. Billy Ray Dale case, and all investigations and subsequent reviews of the Travel Office firings by any agent which include, but isn't limited to, the White House Management Review, the FBI and Justice Department Reviews, the IRS and Treasury Department Reviews and reports, the GAO Review, as well as the proposed House of Representatives Resolution of Inquiry which was considered and voted on in the House Judiciary Committee back in July of '93. Although you may not have information that includes all of these subjects, do you understand that your answers shouldn't purposefully exclude any information that you have, which you recall about these subjects? Mr. Sculimbrene. I do. Ms. Olson. The committee was granted specific authorization to conduct sworn depositions which gave the Chairman the authority to subpoena witnesses under House Resolution 369. That was passed on March 7th of 1996, and a Committee Rule 19 was passed, which allows questioning by the staff to be done under the subpoena authority. As we have previously discussed, you are here today voluntarily and at the request of the FBI and not under House Resolution 369 necessarily in order to bring this testimony. Is it true that you are here voluntarily and not under any subpoena? Mr. Sculimbrene. Yes. Ms. Olson. This deposition is to be administered under oath. You will be allowed to confer with your attorney. If you do not understand a question, tell me, and I will try to rephrase the question. I do ask that all objections which are raised by your attorney to be stated for the record with the reason for the objection. Once an objection is raised, committee Majority counsel will review the objection to determine whether it's proper in this deposition. If Majority counsel does not agree that the objection is properly before this deposition, I will confer with Minority counsel when they are present. Obviously, today I can't do that. If an objection remains outstanding during this deposition, it may ultimately be presented to the Chairman of this committee for a resolution. The Chairman, under the House Resolution, has agreed that he would consult with the Ranking Minority Member before any decision is made on an objection. You will be given a 5-day time frame that you and your attorney can review this deposition and make any changes in the deposition that you feel are appropriate. These changes will allow you to correct any technical problems in the transcript and also to clarify any matters that you believe need to be clarified after the transcript. After the 5-day review period, you will be asked to sign the transcript. Do you understand that? Mr. Sculimbrene. Uh-huh. Mr. Hauser. Dennis, make sure it is an audible yes or no. Mr. Sculimbrene. Yes. I am sorry. Mr. Hauser. Sometimes they get confused. Ms. Olson. You are accompanied by your counsel, and at this time I would ask that you be sworn in. THEREUPON, M. DENNIS SCULIMBRENE, a witness, was called for examination by Majority Counsel, and after having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: Mr. Hauser. Barbara, I would like to put one thing on the record in terms of the background investigation. Ms. Olson. Certainly. Mr. Hauser. Before you start your questioning, I would just like to note for the record that we would have just a general objection to questions that go to the content of FBI files of specific individuals at the White House. To the extent that some information could be characterized in a way that would not do violence to that, we are prepared to answer those questions, but just so we could have that understanding as we proceed. BY MS. OLSON: Q Mr. Sculimbrene, can you just give us your full name and what your current assignment is with the FBI? A M. Dennis Sculimbrene. I am still a special agent with the FBI. Q Where are you currently working? And that's the location of your office. A Tyson's Corner. That's in Falls Church, Virginia. Q Okay. Can you just describe what your current work assignments are with the FBI? A None. Q Are you still employed by the FBI? A Yes. Q Can you just explain why you have no work assignments, if you know? A Since approximately the middle of April, I have had all my work assignments taken from me and am currently undergoing a fitness for duty examination, and the results of that have not been adjudicated, and as a result of that and some other things, work has not been given to me since the middle of April. Q Do you arrive for work each day in Virginia? A Mostly I have been taking annual leave and sick leave, and have been going to the office from time to time and signing in, but not having any work to do. Q Are you physically able to go to the office and do work assignments at your desk if you were given those assignments? A I believe that I am fully capable of doing the job that I had done since 1986. I had been given a recent exceptional rating by my agency, which would attest to the fact that I could do that job. Q And what were you doing in 1986 that you are saying that you believe you were capable of continuing to do? A Well, I started working at the White House as a senior agent assigned from the Washington field office to work at the White House conducting the background investigations of the staff and employees that work inside the complex for the purposes of getting their White House access pass. Q And when were you reassigned from that position? A Well, I haven't seen anything on paper yet, but I have been told that my pass was taken away from me, and these were given to me verbally. I asked for a letter as to why my pass was pulled, and I was told that I was being removed from the White House access because of my safety and because my presence down at the White House would make the administration feel uncomfortable. Q Have you -- you said that you had not gotten the paperwork. Prior to being moved, did you have an office at the White House? A Yes, I did. Q And so the fact that you work in Virginia is a change of assignment or location? A Yes, it is. Q Okay. Did you testify at the Billy Dale trial? A I did. Q Can you just describe the circumstances under which you testified at the United States v. Billy Dale trial? A I testified at the Billy Dale trial primarily as just a witness to what I had seen, heard and observed. Q Was your testimony compelled by subpoena? A Yes, it was. Q Did the FBI -- did the United States Government subpoena you? A No, it did not. Q Who subpoenaed you to testify at the Billy Dale trial? A The defense did. Q Were you told by anyone or asked by anyone to testify to anything but what you had observed and seen in the White House? A No. Q Did any reviews of your fitness or any reviews of you occur after the testimony in the Billy Dale trial? A Yes. Prior to my testimony, I had an argument with a supervisor who was handling the case. Q Can you just describe who that was and what was the substance of that disagreement or argument? A David Bowie, B-O-W-I-E, is the name of the supervisor. He is a person who has known me for over 20 years. We went to training school together. And it was a conversation which started when I was looking for someone on his squad, and it just gradually -- I was looking for somebody else, and I ran into Dave Bowie, and a conversation ensued. And to summarize, he asked me how I was doing. I asked how he was doing, and the subject of the trial of Billy Dale came up, and he made a comment which went something like, well, you know, Dale would have pled guilty a long time ago if it wasn't for those rich Republicans giving him money, and the comment struck me as being wrong-headed. It struck me as being the wrong thing for him to say. It didn't seem very objective, and I felt that I knew that the answer to that was not true, because -- Q What did you believe was wrong-headed about a supervisor at the FBI saying someone wouldn't testify if rich Republicans weren't giving him money? A Well, I didn't think the party affiliation had anything to do with the guilt or innocence of the man. I knew that Billy Dale wasn't a Republican. I believed somebody had told me he had voted for Mr. Clinton, and that later turned out to be correct. He told me that himself. I know a lot of people down at the White House had contributed to his legal defense fund. At the time I had not. And those people were not rich Republicans. A lot of them were just hard-working career Federal employees of both parties, and no party, who happened to work in the White House and believed in his innocence. The conversation became quite heated, and I told Mr. Bowie that -- I had told him before the whole matter started, the whole trial or the whole investigation, I said, you know, you should have had me interviewed by some of your people. He kept saying, well, you had nothing relevant to say. I said, how do you know I have nothing relevant to say unless you interview me? I mean, further on in the conversation, Mr. Bowie threatened me with an OPR investigation. That's a professional review-type thing, which, in fact, happened to me later on. At the end of the conversation, we both kind of cooled down, and we both agreed that we would just go our separate ways and forget about it. When I got home, I got a phone call from I think it was the acting supervisor who said that the ASAC wanted to talk to me and wanted to know what happened between Mr. Bowie and myself. Q Can you just say what's an ASAC? A Okay. Q Just so the record is clear. A It is an assistant special agent in charge. He was the man who was in charge of the Tyson's Corner office where our unit or our squad, basically, is centered. So he is the boss of that office. Q And what is his name? A Ed Schubert, S-C-H-U-B-E-R-T. I hope that's correct. I went to see -- do you want me to continue? Q Please do. A I went to see Mr. Schubert the next Monday. I believe this argument happened on a Friday, and then there was the ensuing weekend. I went on Monday to give Mr. Schubert my version of the conversation. I may have been asked to write something. I am not certain right now. I told him of my concerns about the whole matter. I told him that one of the reasons that I was concerned was that I had learned just a few weeks before that Mr. Bowie had his agents out interviewing baby-sitters and grass-cutters and hairdressers, and I said, it sounds to me like, you know, the Bureau does not have a very good case. Mr. Schubert said something like, well, you know, we found him with money in his personal checking account. And I said something like, well, hell, I could have told you that if you had asked me that 18 months ago, and I think Mr. Dale would have said so. It was my point that I didn't believe Mr. Dale would have spent any of that money. That's my own personal view. Q To make the record clear, how long had you been at the White House working prior to this time? A Well, I started in 1980, on a part-time basis. I left to go up -- work up here in 1984. I was up here for 2 years approximately, and I was sent back down to the White House, and that's when I became a senior agent, and I had been there ever since. Q And during that period of time, did you know that Billy Dale was at the White House in the Travel Office? A Of course I did. I had done a number of investigations on both him and the six other employees who worked in the office. So I knew them. I knew about them. I knew things about their lives. I knew friends of theirs. Billy Dale was not a friend of mine. The prosecution tried to bring out that I was trying to defend a friend. Billy Dale was not a friend of mine. I can only recall having one conversation with him outside the complex in the entire time that I worked down there. Q How would you characterize your relationship with Billy Dale during the entire time that you were at the White House up until his trial? A Strictly professional, but one that -- I mean, I was aware of who he was and what he did, because I had been there for such a long period of time. I had friends who knew him quite well who were friends of his, who told me that he was a very honest, hard-working man. I mean, I knew things -- I knew that he had a houseboat and a place down at Lake Anna, but I don't think anyone -- I don't think he ever told me that. I learned of that from others, perhaps when I talked to people when I did his background investigation. Q So you had talked to the gentleman who was your boss who was head of the office there? A Yeah. Q And what happened after you finished your conversation with him? Did he take any action? A Well, I think that was -- I think he offered to let me see the whole case, which I thought was rather interesting. And I did not want to do that. Q Had you requested to look -- A No. Q -- at the criminal case against Billy Dale? A No. And then he agreed that he -- that I would be interviewed. Now, I assumed this was going to be somebody who knew something about the case, and it wasn't. It was a Mr. Becker, who came from another squad and had no idea what was going on. Q Were you interviewed after you had received your subpoena to testify in the trial? A I can't remember. I am sure if you put the dates together we could find that out, but right now I can't remember. Q But was it before the actual testimony in the Billy Dale trial? A Yes, yes. I forgot to add, too, that after the conversation with Dave Bowie, I had this random drug test, which could have been a coincidence, but then again I didn't think it was. Q How are agents regularly randomly drug-tested? What's the policy? A Well, that's the first time I was ever randomly drug-tested. I asked others in my age group had they ever been randomly drug-tested, and none of them said they had ever been tested. Q Did you mean that was the first time that year or the first time ever? A Ever, ever. Q This occurred after your conversation with Mr. Bowie? A Shortly after, yes. Shortly after. Q During this period of time, had you received your year-end performance reviews previously on your work at the White House? A Well, this conversation with Bowie would have been around in August, so I had had a previous performance rating done probably in April because that's the time I came to the Bureau, and I had one recently done, which was exceptional, which is the highest ranking that you can get. Q Had you received other exceptional performance reviews of your work? A Since I have been at the White House, I believe they have all been exceptional. Q And just so the record is clear, is it true that right now you are working out of the Virginia office, but are given no assignments to do with the FBI? A Right. I want you to understand that there's a -- it's a complicated situation where perhaps there's a reason why I don't have work. For medical reasons, they may have decided to do this. I personally think that if common sense had prevailed and they had done what I asked them to do, and that was to send me to the Bureau doctor, have me checked over, as I just did recently, that the whole matter could have been taken care of. I didn't think that the process that they put me through was a fair process. I think it was unjustified and a waste of the taxpayers' money. Q And the Bureau doctor is currently going to make an assessment of your physical fitness? A He did. I was examined about two Fridays ago, and he said, you should be on limited duty, like I said I should have been, and he didn't indicate there was any problems with my mental or physical status as far as doing my job that I had done. Q And once again, so the record is clear, what is the limited duty that you were recommended for by your doctor, and I guess now the FBI doctor? A Okay. When -- I had a very serious accident in 1994, January 1994. I had a very difficult rehabilitation. I had a head injury, bones penetrated into my brain, and I had to have -- you know, I had permanent damage done to certain areas of my brain. I have vision problems. I have hearing problems. I have balance problems. I had sensory-taste problems. I had some learning disability problems. I went to a place called Shenandoah Learning Services in Manassas, Virginia, and had therapy done. After I was there for a period of time, they recommended that I return to work. The occupational therapist at Shenandoah Learning Services and my wife and my then current supervisor Tom Reneghan, they all got together and decided that I should go back to work, and the reasons why they felt I could go back to work was that I had a perfect job for a person with my type of limitations. I had an office that I could go to. I had a set routine. I didn't have to do anything dangerous. I did the job well for 18 months, and when suddenly I was being told that I hadn't asked for an accommodation, I couldn't understand why there was a problem. Q And the problems arose around the time of the Billy Dale trial? A Right after that, yes. Q Okay. Can you just put on the record when you started with the FBI? A April 1973. Q And what had you done prior to starting with the FBI? A I was -- I was a sales manager for FMC Corporation. I was also in the Air Force Reserve from 1970 to 1973. Prior to that, from 1965 to 1970, I was an Air Force pilot. I flew a plane that the Air Force uses as a tanker, that the airlines use as a transfer plane. A Boeing 707 is what it was. That's the reason why I was hired for the Bureau was to take part in a program where they hired, I think, around 50 pilots to take part in an antihijacking program. So when I initially came into the Bureau, that was one of the things that I did. Q And did that bring you to Washington, D.C. A No. I came to Washington in 1976 and was assigned to the current squad that I am on now, basically the Applicant Squad. And for the last 20 years, I have been doing applicant work. Now, for part of the earlier years, I did some flying work, surveillance for the FBI. I also did the switch program. That may be classified. Q Why don't we strike that. A Yes. Q I want to ask you some -- A And in Buffalo, I handled all types of criminal matters. I worked in organized crime. I worked on a surveillance unit up there, ground surveillance unit. I worked in a bank robbery squad, and I worked on fugitives, and I did a pretty good job, I think. Q And Buffalo was prior to you coming to Washington, D.C. -- A Yes. Q -- with the FBI? A Right. Q Okay. I wanted to ask you some questions about the office at the White House. Can you tell us where your FBI Liaison Office is located, physically within the complex? A Okay. Currently it's in room 532 of the Old Executive Office Building. As a senior agent, I was the one who was responsible for getting the space. We were bounced around a lot up there. The movers used to say we ought to just put wheels under our desks because we get moved around so often. But it seems like we finally found a home in 532, and we had been there for a number of years. We had phones. We got all old computers that they were going to throw out that they gave us, and everything was kind of on the QT. I mean, this was not FBI equipment. It was White House equipment, White House material, White House furniture. We need the office because we need to do private interviews. We need a place to hang our hat to have phones answered, so we needed the office up there. Q And that leads into the next question I was going to ask you, which was: What were your primary duties at the White House? A My primary duties were to interview people, primarily staff people. Just as a matter of routine, we would get their SF-86, their Standard Form 86, their personnel security form questionnaire. I would call a person up to come into the office. I would sit down with them and interview them about their forms that they had filled out. Generally, if everything was okay, it was, you know, a 10-minute, 15-minute interview. If someone, for example, would say, when I asked the question, have you ever used illegal drugs, and they said, yes, I have used illegal drugs 100 times, then the interview is going to take a little bit longer. I am going to have to thoroughly, you know, find out what types of drugs, how many times they used them, when did they use them, are they addicted, did they have any treatment. This information I have to write down on a 302, and that's submitted to FBI headquarters eventually, and usually that information is disseminated to other offices, or to agents within the Washington field office if they live here. Q How many interviews would you do of a person -- and I know this is different for each person, but is there one interview unless something is found out, or is there always a set of interviews? A There's always -- a new person is usually 15 to 20 interviews minimum. If it's a Presidential, it could be as many as 35 interviews. Of course, if, you know, others -- Mr. Hauser. Just for clarification, are you asking the number of interviews that Mr. Sculimbrene would conduct himself of an applicant, or just generally the number contacted as part of the background investigation? Ms. Olson. Let me make it clear. BY MS. OLSON: Q Generally, 35 or more is the general for an FBI background? A Right. And I would not do all of those. Q Certainly. Personally in the White House -- if it's a White House staff member, how many interviews would they have by either you or your partner that was in the White House? A Generally, it could be between 5 and 7 interviews. If something came up on a background investigation -- say I interviewed someone and they told me that everything was perfectly okay, and then the field outside, you know, outside my office, comes back and says that this person had used -- had sold drugs while they were in college, then I would have to call this person back upstairs. And I would have to sit down with them and say, you know, somebody said that you used illegal drugs or sold illegal drugs while you were in college, and give them an opportunity to refute what that person had said. So we wouldn't just accept, you know, the raw negative information. We would give the person an opportunity to refute or answer or explain or confess that, yes, he did tell a falsehood on his forms. Q Did you have any requirement that you report any of that information to Craig Livingstone or anybody who was in the White House during '93? A Okay. Now, here is the way the system works. If I get -- any information that I got, either derogatory or positive, I would give that to the FBI. That would go from the FBI office at Tyson's Corner over to headquarters, and then it would go back to Craig Livingstone's office, or whoever was in that office. I have no control over -- I don't even see my finished product. I could say one thing on the 302 -- you know, because I don't see the finished product. Q Do you know who in headquarters -- A Jim Bourke was in charge of that unit, and prior to that Tom Kirk, and prior to that -- it doesn't really matter, I guess. Q Okay. You had mentioned a 302. Can you tell us what a 302 is for people who don't understand? A Okay. A 302 is a document that agents use when they think it's possible that this will be used in a court of law, not necessarily but possibly, as opposed to an insert where we don't have certain information. A 302 has the date the person was interviewed, who interviewed him, who dictated it, the date that it was transcribed. And it's a form. And it also says on the bottom of the form that this can't be given out to certain people, and various legalese. Q Is it a summary of the interview? A It's a summary of the interview, yes. Q And who makes that summary? A The agent himself does that, the agent who did the interview. And if he has another agent, both agents are supposed to sign it. However, the person who is interviewed does not sign it. Q Okay. A It's not like a signed statement. Q While you were at the White House, how many other FBI agents were assigned there with you at any one time? And did that number change through the years? A Usually, there were two agents assigned there, as a matter of routine. During periods of transition, four agents, five agents, but usually two agents. After I had my accident, when I came back to work, there were six agents up there. Q Okay. When you first went over to the White House, who was there with you? A First, when I first went over? Q Yes? A Bob Cronin, C-R-O-N-I-N. Q And then if you could just go through the different agents as you recall. A There have been three senior agents assigned. Q Who are they? A George Saunders, S-A-U-N-D-E-R-S; Bob is the second one; and I was the third one, and probably going to be the last one. That's an aside. Stop me from these asides. Mr. Hauser. Okay, Jim. BY MS. OLSON: Q Other than you as a senior agent, do you remember any of the other, I guess, agents that would have been under you? A Yes, it would have been Gary Aldrich was a long-time serving agent with me; Louis "Bud" Small, he had been up there for a number of years with me. The rest of the people were not there for more than the period of -- were there for less than the period of years -- except for the people that are currently up there now. Q These group of five people were the people who had the most significant time in the White House with you? A Yes, I mean several years' time. Q Can you give us an approximation of how many background investigations that White House unit might go through in a month? A I just did a study, and I should remember this, but it could be anywhere from, say, 60 to 200, I would say. Q And that would depend on whether it's a transition period or a down period for hiring? A Yes. Q During a period of transition from one administration to the other, do you start doing backgrounds as soon as the election is completed, or do you always wait until the new administration starts after Inauguration? A Okay. Now, mind you, I have nothing to do -- as a GS-13 street agent, you are asking me a question that I can't directly speak to. I am going to have to talk to you as a person who has been involved in this process for a long time. Q Let me clarify then. Do you get paperwork to start immediately after an election from the new administration, or does it always wait until the Inauguration or when they are actually in the White House? A Usually, from past experience, the incoming administration starts sending us cases or, you know, background investigations to do on the top people, the Cabinet level people and all. Usually they would start coming in the middle of December, which is rather inconvenient for us street agents because by the time we start working on it, it's Christmas week, and guess where everyone is during Christmas week. They are gone, but meanwhile our deadlines are still ticking. But in answer to your question, we -- you know, we did get investigations prior to the administration coming on board, mostly of the higher level Cabinet positions. Q And what is the purpose for getting the FBI's background process begun that early on? A Well, you would -- you would hope that the administrations are going to want the FBI to look into people to preclude embarrassments that happen to them, like they did on Zoe Baird and Kimba Wood, and I can also say about a few others. But that's basically it. We are there to help the administrations, to prevent them from some embarrassments. That's how I read my job, at least part of my job. Q And to focus on the current administration, were you getting in the background material and would start processing the Clinton administration at an early period as you had with other administrations? A No. It was -- there was a marked contrast. We had less cases to do. The forms were poorly filled out. A lot of -- when we started getting some of them, it was like in July. They were back-dated in December. So somebody had not submitted them in time, or someone had -- there was a problem somewhere along the line. So by the time the agents in the field actually started working on the case, there were a lot of gaps in the time which had to be filled out, and I would fault somebody somewhere for not making sure that these things were up-to-date. That's one criticism that I would make. Q And I wanted to clarify. You said you would get some forms in July that were dated December? A Right. So we wouldn't know where this person had lived, where they had been working, and it's supposed to be on the form. Q So this would be an SF-86? A Right. Q That the individual indicated they had actually signed in December, but for some reason it didn't come to the FBI until the following 7 months later? A Right. For example, say if someone worked on a campaign, and then went to Kansas City from January to July, and then started working at the White House, well, we wouldn't have known until I sat down and talked to them, and said, well, where were you from January to July; well, I was at Kansas City working at such and such a job. We would have to send a lead to Kansas City, and it would lead to a delay in the case. That was the sort of unprofessional things we didn't see in other administrations. Q Did you ever experience any difficulties of setting up interviews in '93? A Yes, I did. Q Can you tell us just generally? A Generally speaking, there was an unresponsive attitude on the part of a great number of people in the Clinton administration, as opposed to previous administrations that I had served in, including the Carter, Reagan and Bush administrations. We just didn't seem to command the respect that our position, I think, demanded. People -- Q And I wanted to make the record clear. What do you mean "that your position demanded"? A Well, the fact that we were doing something for the administration, I mean, we weren't weren't doing it for us or the FBI. We were doing it for the administration. I mean, this vetting process was being done for whatever administration was currently in power. And we often had questions thrown at us like, well, it's none of your business. And I said, it's not my business. It's the President's business. I am here because the President of the United States asked me to ask you these questions. And I don't care if you used illegal drugs, but perhaps he does, and that's why I'm asking these questions. And I -- I mean, I can't tell you how many times I was confronted by kids who were young enough to be my own kids questioning me about asking those questions. Now, I just bit my tongue, but I was offended by that. Q When you would have problems setting up interviews or getting phone calls, was there anything you could do to secure an interview? A Yes. I would go down and walk into their office, or I would go down and look to see if they were in their office, and then when they said that they weren't available, I would call them. Sometimes I would embarrass them into giving an interview. Q And did this happen more than once? A More than once. Scores of times. Q We have received a lot of lists of background investigations in the course of our investigation of the FBI files issue. Were you aware that the FBI background investigations on all the FBI agents were sent over to the White House and kept by Craig Livingstone in the White House Office of Personnel Security? A Run that question by me again. Q Were you aware that the FBI background investigations on you personally, as well as all the other FBI agents -- A Me personally? Q -- were sent over to the White House Office of Personnel Security? A No, I wasn't aware of that. That would have been precedent-setting. Q Was it your understanding that it was the responsibility of the White House to make sure that you and other FBI agents got your FBI background investigations updated every 5 years? A That's something that we just started doing at the FBI, something I would fault the FBI for not doing. Q So in the past an FBI agent wasn't reinvestigated on a 5-year period? A It wasn't -- it wasn't a real thorough investigation. They did an arrest and criminal check on you, but they didn't do the type of investigation that we did at the White House on staff people. It was a -- I would say a casual background investigation. Q I have a list of names that I am going to mark as Deposition Exhibit 1. This is a list of names -- of requests for background investigations on individuals. [Sculimbrene Deposition Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.] BY MS. OLSON: Q Do you recognize any of the names on this list? A Yeah. That one there. Q And that is number one, Gary Warren Aldrich? A Uh-huh. Q If you would just take a few minutes to look and see if you recognize any of the other names? A That rings a bell, but I better not -- Donald Ashby, I know that name. He is a gardener. Q I will go through these. I mean, this is a fairly long list. A He is a GSA guy, I recognize him. How do you want to do this? Q You have just pointed to the name which is number -- which one did you point to? A No. 52, Jose Canales. Q I am going to go all the way -- Mr. Hauser. If you would like him to review this later, we would be happy to, just for purposes of expediting this. BY MS. OLSON: Q Okay. All the way here, do you see a name on page 11 that you recognize? A Yes. That's the headquarters guy, Doug -- he is the guy who should have been contacted if headquarters wanted to -- if headquarters -- if the White House wanted a headquarters person to handle the Travel Office, he is the one who should have been contacted. Q And this is a person named John Douglas Seward, S-E-W-A-R-D? A Yes. Q He works for the FBI? A Yes -- I don't know whether he works for them anymore, but he was the FBI liaison man who had a White House pass, who worked at the White House during the Travel Office thing. Q Were you aware that his FBI background investigation was sent to the White House -- A No. Q -- to be kept by Craig Livingstone? A No, I was not. Q I note, if you will look at No. 192 on this list -- A I didn't even notice that. Q -- it is the name Dennis -- M. Dennis Sculimbrene, whose background investigation -- did you know your background investigation was sent to the White House? A No, I did not. Joseph Sawyer, he is -- Q Joseph Lewis Sawyer who is No. 189, he is an FBI agent? A No, he is a courier, messenger, from headquarters. Q You had pointed to number one on this list, which is Gary Aldrich. Did you know that his background investigation was provided to Craig Livingstone at the White House? A No, I did not. Ms. Olson. I have a document I am going to mark as Deposition Exhibit No. 2, and it is a memorandum dated May 30th, 1996, to the FBI Liaison Office from Craig Livingstone, talking about a 5-year reinvestigation, and it says, "The following individual requires a 5-year FBI reinvestigation. Please issue a security packet and allow 30 days to complete the necessary paperwork. If you have any questions, please call my office at extension 62345. Thank you," and lists the following individual as being Dennis Sculimbrene. [Sculimbrene Deposition Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.] BY MS. OLSON: Q Were you aware that it was up to Craig Livingstone to make sure that FBI agents got their 5-year reinvestigation? A No. When I saw that, I was flabbergasted. Q Can you think of any purpose the White House has to have the background files on FBI agents? A No, I cannot. Q As an FBI agent who has a badge, have you already been cleared by the FBI as to whether or not you are a security risk to the President? A Yes. And as a matter of fact, as a senior agent, I was the one who would okay the agents who were going to help me or come over there on a part-time basis, and prior to this administration that's how I did it. I wrote up a little letter saying that I am asking for the White House to issue a pass, and I would bring it down to the office where Jane Dannenhauer used to sit, where now -- well, where Craig Livingstone used to sit, and I would give them the letter, and they would issue the pass. That's how it used to be. So this is precedent-breaking. Q During the period of 1993, did you ever notice a number of volunteers that began to come into the White House complex? A Numerous volunteers. Q Was this overly unusual when you relate it to prior Carter, Reagan or Bush administrations for the same period? A Completely unprecedented. In my casual conversations with people in the Secret Service, you know, at coffee tables or having a smoke, whatever -- I don't smoke, but when they were smoking -- we were all concerned about the number of people that were in the building apparently without any types of even name checks. There was just -- the sheer number and volumes of people walking around the place was mind-boggling. Q The administration had announced a 25 percent cut and said that they were using volunteers obviously to help do the work of the cut. Why would it be a concern of the FBI or the Secret Service that there was a large volume of volunteers coming in to help out at the White House? A Who knows who these volunteers were? I mean, some of these people might have been, you know, wanted for armed robbery or murder or whatever. I don't think -- I couldn't swear to it, but I am sure that there were a lot of people that were in that building that didn't even have name checks. Q And in the past, you have mentioned getting name checks. Is that a process that volunteers were expected to have before they entered the White House complex? A Any visitor would have a name check done. When I brought a visitor in, we would run their names by the FBI computers to see if they were wanted for anything. It was just a normal process that would go on. Q During the first year of the administration, was there a large number of staff that continued to hold temporary White House passes going throughout 1993 and into the first part of 1994? A Yes. Q Was that of any concern? A Yes. Q To you or the Secret Service? A It was a concern to me. Q Why? A Because they -- they didn't have the backgrounds done on them that should have been done, that had been done previously. It was a -- it was a violation of the rules. However, it wasn't -- you know, if that's what the administration wanted, that's what they were going to get. I was just concerned about it because I was looking out for the best interests of the administration. I wanted them to succeed. I did not want them to be embarrassed, and I thought that if you have 100 people, you are going to have one bad apple, I don't care what party that they are in. And I was afraid that they were going to be embarrassed potentially. Q Did there come a time when the White House effectuated a policy change to allow people with temporary badges to bring in visitors to the White House? A Yes. I was aware of that, and I thought that was -- you know, the temporary people who weren't vetted were allowing people to come in who -- only God knows who they were. Q And had that occurred similarly in past administrations, during Carter, Reagan and Bush? A Not to my knowledge, no. Q Do any instances stick out in your mind, or do you recall any particular instances where a volunteer attempted to bring in any prohibited items or attempted to get access with any either weapons or items that they shouldn't have in the White House? A I'm not personally familiar with anything like that. Q And I ask this because there were some -- A I heard rumors. Q -- memos and policies that came out, and I didn't know if it was as a result -- A I had only heard rumors about it, so I would rather not comment about it. Q Okay. Were there similarly interns that were in the White House without their background clearances during the first year? A Were there? Q Interns. A Yes, there were. There were interns working in Livingstone's office, so I knew that -- I would say, Gary, did you do their background? And I knew I hadn't done their background, and then I knew he hadn't done their background, so that's how we were aware of that for a fact. Q Were you aware of those interns before it became public in the past few weeks? A Oh, yes, yes. Q To your knowledge, was that a new policy of allowing interns -- A Yes. Q -- to go into that Security Office? A Yes. Because prior to that, anybody that worked in the office had a background done before they let them work in that office, to the best of my knowledge. Q And prior to Craig Livingstone taking that job, who had been responsible for making sure that everyone had backgrounds within the Office of Personnel Security? A Jane Dannenhauer, and Nancy Gemmell in her absence. Q And did you work with Jane Dannenhauer and Nancy Gemmell through the years when you were there? A Yes, I did. Q And can you describe how they ran that office? A It was like night and day. They were perhaps overly cautious. Sometimes I would think that they were being cautious to the point of being, you know, wasteful of agents' time. Q Can you give -- what do you mean by "overly cautious"? A Well, they were concerned about -- they were concerned about things that I didn't think were that serious. They erred on the side of caution. Q What would you think not serious, something like a traffic ticket? A A traffic violations, yes. If they found that a traffic violation would perhaps be a serious thing, and then on -- well, like for a young man, I would not think that that would be that serious a thing. Q So when they would learn of that, would they bring that to your attention to review? A They would sometimes bring that to my attention, yes, because they would say something like, well, you know, we are going to update so and so, and you remember he had this traffic violation. Whereas I never saw any sign or indication of anything of substance really seemed to bother Mr. Livingstone. Q And by -- A And I say that because I knew what happened, or I knew of things in that person's background investigation, and then, you know, 3, 4, 5 months later knew that person was working there, so my deduction being that they didn't care about it. Q And without going into any specifics that would identify anyone, were those things in the background investigation worse than a traffic violation? A Much worse, yes, at least in my eyes very much worse, if you want to consider using illegal drugs repetitively, lying to law enforcement officers, lying about school records, being fired. Q One of the explanations for using illegal drugs that we hear a lot now is that this is a younger generation, and way back in college this younger generation smoked marijuana. The illegal drug use, was it beyond younger generation kids who might have smoked marijuana back in college? A Yes, it was. It was older people who had used illegal drugs much more recently, as recently as the Inaugural. Q And were these drugs anything other than marijuana use? A Yes. They were in addition to marijuana. Q What kinds of drugs, if you recall? A Designer drugs. I think the first time I heard the word "designer drugs" was off an appointee. Cocaine. Q Any crack cocaine that you ever recall being used? A Possibly crack cocaine, but I couldn't be specific about that. Q But it was beyond -- A Mushrooms, mushrooms, you know, hallucinogenic mushrooms. I think some people used LSD. It was much more than the one or two times when they were 18 or 19 years old, when they were freshmen in college trying a marijuana cigarette. Q Trying a marijuana cigarette? A Yes. Of course, the thing that bothered me personally was the attitude: So what, I used it? Q And you said the drug use would even go up to the point of someone having used drugs at the time of the Inauguration? A Yes. And I am not talking about junior staffers, either. Q Were these people -- once you received that notice that something like that had occurred, were they immediately removed from the White House staff, to your knowledge? A In previous administrations, yes. Q In this current administration? A In this current administration, no. Q People, to your knowledge, were allowed to remain in their position at the White House? A I don't know of a single person in this administration, regardless of drug use or any other thing that I was aware of, was terminated because of anything that came up on their FBI background investigation, not a single person. I could be wrong. Q And when you brought up the incident of -- Mr. Hauser. Could I maybe just clarify, are you saying terminated, or perhaps not hired, or was there a distinction at this point? The Witness. No, because they had been hired, because we didn't do anybody who had not been hired. They were so far behind. BY MS. OLSON: Q So these are individuals who were currently working in the White House? A Yes. I don't think I am violating anybody's privacy by speaking in general terms here, am I? Mr. Hauser. No, I don't think -- my view is at this point, I don't think so. But again, I just wanted to raise the general caution that I mentioned at the outset. BY MS. OLSON: Q I am going to say general without commenting on any specific people. But you did mention a general problem of someone being fired. Would that be someone who had just not disclosed that that had occurred in their background, and then you would find out that it had occurred? A Yes. It was not part of my job to get involved in the firing process. I only -- you know, it was just -- it is just an observation. I interviewed someone, knew of a problem in their background investigation, and would wonder why they were there 3 or 4 months from now. Now, in previous administrations, I would go by the office and they were gone; you know, the supposition being that they were fired or asked to leave or decided to go on their own. But for whatever reason, they were gone. Q During the beginning, and I guess the first year -- A Could I ask who this gentleman is? Ms. Olson. He is a court reporter who is going to take over for this court reporter. The Witness. Thank you. BY MS. OLSON: Q During this first year of the administration, did you have any problems getting phone lists or any phone numbers once the new phone had changed over? A Well, we didn't have a telephone list for a while, a long time. Q Do you know how long that lasted? A It was quite a while. I was working from -- I worked for a long time from the Washington Post, who was -- who, what and where they were, because there wasn't any official telephone list stating where the new people's offices were and what their titles were. There was a big -- there was a big to-do about whose title was what and, you know, nobody seemed to know what their title was. RPTS STRICKLAND DCMN HERZFELD Q And did you find that to be common for all new administrations during the first year? A No, it was peculiar to this administration. Q Was your office at the White House hooked into the e-mail system so that you could communicate with others? A No, no, it was not. I didn't want it to be hooked up. Mr. Aldrich -- it was one of our differences of opinion. Q Why did you not want it to be hooked up? A I was very paranoid about being connected to the White House computers. I didn't know whether they could tap into me or not, so I would rather not be hooked into the system. I think he felt it was better, because we could relay messages and make appointments. But I liked my own tried and true method. If they don't answer my phone calls once or twice, then I get on my feet and go find them and track them down. I did that up here on the Hill with Senators and Congressmen. I would track them down and get them away from their staff and interview them. That's how I did it. Q Were you in attendance or aware of any monthly meetings during 1993 to discuss the White House pass situation with Secret Service and other White House security officers? A Only on the periphery. I wasn't in the loop of that. [Sculimbrene Deposition Exhibit No. 3 was marked for identification.] BY MS. OLSON: Q I have a document that I'll mark as Deposition Exhibit 3, and it is a March 31st memo which we received from the Secret Service, and I just ask you just look at that and tell me whether people like George Saunders or Chuck Easley were putting together meetings? A Well, I remember John Guest. This is Arnie Cole, C-O-L-E. He was head of the Pass and Identification Division. Q And by way of identification, that is obviously not a document that you necessarily would have ever seen before? A No. Q We just received it about meetings, and it appears that the Secret Service was participating in and had listed some of the FBI agents that were present in the White House. And I was wondering if you recall attending any meetings or if this was just a list of people who were in the security operation? A I see a name here, Carolyn Weber, I don't know why she was on that list. Q And why is that? A I don't ever recall her working at the White House. Ms. Olson. We can go off the record for a minute. [Discussion off the record.] BY MS. OLSON: Q Do you recall attending any meetings that pertain to the Deposition Exhibit Number 3? A It could be, and then again -- I do remember attending one meeting with Bill Kennedy and Livingstone, and Saunders was there, and Easley was there, and Gary and I were there, and some other people from Secret Service, but I think it was just a general let's get acquainted meeting. All the people were very concerned with security, meet Kennedy and meet Livingstone. Q Do you know if anything ever came out of these meetings? A Nothing good. Q Any problems were ever cleared up? A No, no, I don't -- Q Any difficulties ever clarified? A I don't think so. I don't think they continued it either. Yeah, this is the meeting that I recall, because we had a list of the contact people from the different offices here: Elizabeth Kaminski, Joan Edwards, Ron Voight. Q And the names that you have just described are the various security contacts in the offices in the White House complex? A These are the people who would kind of, yeah, monitor filling out the SF-86s for people in their agencies. Kaminski, she would have handled the Council of Economic Advisors. If they had a new member coming in the CEA, Kaminski would give it to this person, show how to fill out the form and what to expect. And Kaminski in turn would give the SF-86 to Livingstone, and he would send it over to headquarters. These were the people that were in the various offices that handled the administrative security matters. Q On here for the National Security Council it has Jim Farrell. We were told that the National Security Council has its own office there where personnel files are kept. Do you know if they participate in any background investigation collection? A You know, that was kind of a changing scenario because I remember when I first started, they had a career GS-17 security officer. And the position kind of lost its importance where one time during periods of the Clinton administration I think they had a Navy yeoman handling the security matters. Because everyone at the NSC needs a security clearance, and their agency actually does grant clearances. They took our background investigations. Besides getting a pass, they also grant them a clearance based on the FBI background investigation. And that's one of the functions that that office did. As far as having some files there, I think they did. Q Okay. Did you participate in the clearance of the National Security Council individuals? A Yes. Q And did you discuss these with the individuals that were being cleared and had the interviews similar to as you described? A The FBI had nothing to do with whether a person got a clearance or didn't get a clearance. The only FBI agents that give clearances are FBI agents on other FBI agents. FBI can't give a clearance to someone at CIA or at the Office of Science and Technology. That is that agency's responsibility. Q Let me rephrase it. Did you interview some of the NSC people? A Yes, I did. I did their background investigations, the results of which were used by the Agency. Q And do you know if the final background investigation on the NSC went over to the White House Security Office that Craig Livingstone was in? A I think it went through their office, but I think it eventually ended up in the National Security Council's office. But once again, I had no official knowledge of that. Mr. Hauser. You want to take a break? The Witness. How long have we been here? Ms. Olson. If you want to take a break to stretch for a few minutes, we can. [Recess 2:50 to 2:56 p.m.] BY MS. OLSON: Q We are back on the record after a short 5-minute break. I wanted to follow up on an area where we had talked about Jane Dannenhauer when she was head of the Office of Personnel Security, and we had talked about some of the interns being in the current administration; that Jane had not had anyone there without background investigations. What kind of hours did you ever observe Jane keeping or the way in which she ran the office that you noticed was different from the way the office was run under Mr. Livingstone? A Her office was always staffed, always open, and she worked long hours, because I worked long hours. I usually left the building 7:00, 7:30, and oftentimes she was still there. Q And do you know if Jane came in before 10 o'clock in the morning? A Yes, she did. She was a hard worker. Mr. Livingstone, at first -- is that where we're going? Q Yes, I wanted to ask you about Mr. Livingstone. Was he there at the beginning of the administration? A He was not there. And as he told me, and as I understood from others, he was looking for another job. He told me he wanted to run the Military Office. Q Do you know if he interviewed with anyone to obtain the job in the Military Office? A I subsequently learned from press reports. I don't want to get confused in my mind what I heard through the press and what I actually remember 3 years ago, but I do know that he told me he did not want the job that he had and that he did want the Military Office. But who he contacted or spoke to, I don't know. Q The fact that he did not want the job that he had, did that reflect in his running of that office, to your belief, based upon your prior experience? A Yes, because for a while there he was never there. Nancy Gemmell, I believe, was ready to retire, wanted to leave, and she was more or less running the thing for a while, as best she could with the limited power that she had. Q I believe Nancy Gemmell retired in August, I believe it was August 14th. And did that continue until she retired, that Mr. Livingstone was absent from the office? A His absence grew less and less once he decided -- I am making a supposition now, but I would say this, that his absences grew less. He was in the office more and more and more. Q As time progressed through the year? A As time progressed, yes, yes. Q The testimony that we had in our hearing was that Mr. Livingstone actually didn't come on board for a while; that the first few weeks he wasn't actually on payroll in the White House until February. A Right. Q Do you know what he was doing in those first few weeks before he was on payroll? A Once again, I'm going to get into that area where I might confuse what I read about and what I actually recall. Q Okay. That's fine. The Office of White House Security has a vault, and can you just describe where that vault is in relation to the office? A Okay. That used to be the Executive Clerk's Office, and when Jane Dannenhauer took over in 1980, she moved her office right next door so that she could be next to the vault. Q Do you know why she wanted to be next to the vault? A She wanted to be close to where the records were and keep her eye on it and make sure that the people that went in and out of it were people that should be going in and out of it. The office is a very small office. I'm talking about room 84. Very small. Craig complained to me lots of time about how small an office it was. Let's see, there was basically three or four desks in the outer office next to the vault. The vault was a little bit smaller than the office. It's got a Rolodex, a big rotating thing. I think it was installed in the Reagan administration. Q Is that a file cabinet? A A file cabinet, yes. There was a Xerox machine in the office. And I know much has been made about the fact that you could go into the vault, pull a file out of the vault, go to the Xerox machine, and Xerox copies of it. And the answer to is that possible? Yes. Did I ever see it happen? No. Did I ever use the Xerox machine? Yes. Q Do you know if there is a phone in the vault? A I believe there is a phone in the vault. Q Did you ever go into the White House Security Office under Craig Livingstone when there was no one there? A Yes. Q And was the vault properly locked and secured when there was no one there? A I believe it was open. Q And was it open insofar as you could walk into the office and into the vault? A If I wanted to, I could have. Q And did that only happen once, that you ever saw the office empty with the vault open? A I know it happened at least once. I'm almost certain it happened a couple of times. I used to go into the office on almost a daily basis to get SF-86 copies that we used in the Washington field office. That was the purpose and the reason why I went in. And it really struck me as, you know, unconscionable that I could walk into this office, and lo and behold, there wasn't anybody there. Q And is that why you recall it after this period of time? A Yes, yes, yes. I'm not saying it was like that as a matter of rule. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that there were times that you could walk -- anyone could have walked into that office, and it was open. Q During the period where Mr. Livingstone told you he had wanted to get a job at the Military Office, do you know if that was the first half of '93, the last half, or can you place it in time? A It was definitely in the beginning of the administration, so it would have been the first half of 1993. Q Did Mr. Livingstone ever discuss any of his advance work that he had done for the administration with you? A Yes, but I -- Q The first question, let me clarify, did he ever discuss it outside of the context of his background investigation? A Yes. Q Out of the context of his background investigation, can you just tell us what he said about his advance work, if you recall? A Well, he was a man who was not disinclined to inflate his ego, and he told me a number of stories about the work that he had done on the campaign. But he never told me about the accounts that I have since read in the paper about the chickens. Q And that was my followup. Did he ever tell you that he had been responsible for deploying Chicken George? A No, that would have made me more suspicious had he told me he had participated in such childish activity. Q Did he describe that he had done political advance work or had a lot of knowledge about politics and individuals involved in politics outside of the context of his background? A Yes, outside the context of the background investigations, yes, we did have a number of conversations about that. Q And similarly, had you had similar conversations with individuals who had run that office before Craig Livingstone about their political savvy or knowledge? And I guess that would have been Jane Dannenhauer? A Yes, I had a number of conversations with Jane Dannenhauer and others. I am a very gregarious person. I enjoy talking to people. I enjoy finding out what they think. And I don't necessarily want to agree with everyone. I enjoy having differences of opinion and having intellectual and intelligent conversations about those differences. Q Did you find Craig Livingstone's political background and work, advance work, similar to Jane's political background? A Absolutely totally 180 degrees opposed. Q Can you explain what you mean by that? A Well, Jane had worked in responsible positions for a number of different politicians in the past going back to Senator Murphy, I guess. Both she and her sister had worked on the Hill. She was a tremendous lady. I mean, in the greatest sense of the word. She had good manners. We had common interests in music. We both like jazz music. We both played the piano in our youth. Q Did you find her to have political interests in running the office or looking at it as a political steppingstone? A No. No. I remember having a conversation with Jane on a number of occasions that I thought the office should not have any political person and that it should be run by a bureaucrat, and she disagreed with me about that. But that's about as far as that went. Q In Mr. Livingstone's conversations about his political background, outside of his background investigation, do you recall any specific stories that he might have told you that would have stuck out in your mind as being relevant to the kind of job he did at the White House Security Office? A Well, he claimed that his mother knew Hillary Clinton. That sticks out like a sore thumb. Q Can you explain what Mr. Livingstone said to you and in what context he told you that? A Now, I'm pretty sure this conversation occurred in my interview with him. This should be off of the record. Mr. Hauser. We would have our standard objection as to any information disclosed to or obtained by Mr. Sculimbrene during the part of an investigation. BY MS. OLSON: Q Would such information have been recorded in a background investigation of Mr. Livingstone? A No. Q Why wouldn't that kind of information go into a background? A That's an agent's call. And since I really didn't know whether it was true or not, it was more or less irrelevant. Q Is there other information such as whether or not Mr. Livingstone's mother knew the First Lady that you heard from Mr. Livingstone but didn't put in his background investigation? A I heard others tell me that that was the case; that he had told them that his mother knew Mrs. Clinton. Q And was that Bill Kennedy? A Only by inference. Q Can you explain what kind of inference Mr. Kennedy made that made you think that he thought Mr. Livingstone's mother knew the First Lady? A This is difficult for me to explain. It was apparent to me that Mr. Livingstone didn't want this job. From conversations, several conversations, with Mr. Kennedy, it became apparent to me that Mr. Kennedy did not want Mr. Livingstone in this job. Q And what were the context of those conversations? A Well, he asked me, well, do you want to work with him? And I told him, this is an inappropriate question for you to ask me, Mr. Kennedy. Q For Mr. Kennedy to ask you as an FBI agent? A Yes, as the FBI agent who doesn't answer questions like that. And he kept pressing me and kept pressing me. And I think I finally I said to him something like that I can work with anybody that the administration asks me to work with, but he wouldn't be my first choice. Don't hold me to those exact words, but I think that is about what I said. Q Did you make any suggestions to Mr. Kennedy about anyone who else might work in that office? A I did. And that's why I felt that he was stuck, that would be the word that I would use, because there was an individual whom I had known in the end of the Carter administration named Jackie Dinwiddie, D-I-N-W-I-D-D-I-E, I believe, who had Jane Dannenhauer's job, worked in the same office. She was a competent, honest career professional. I did this out of my -- some people said why did you do this, Dennis? I did this out of my own personal interest because I felt if we had a competent professional there, my job would be easier. She would know exactly what she had to do and exactly the pitfalls, because I wanted this administration to succeed. I told Mr. Kennedy that either Bob Cronin had told me -- he was the former agent who used to work at the White House -- either he told me that she contacted him or Ms. Dinwiddie contacted me about another matter and told me about it. And Mr. Kennedy told me that he knew that Mrs. Dinwiddie was interested in the job, so even my bringing it up for a second or third time -- but he told me it was a done deal, that Craig was going to have the job. So by inference, taking Craig Livingstone at his word back then that his mother did know Hillary, that was my assumption. Q And this was early on when they were considering putting Mr. Livingstone on a permanent basis? A Yes. Q You had characterized Ms. Dimwiddie as a competent, honest professional career person. Is that how you would characterize Jane Dannenhauer? A Yes, yes. Q And what was it about Craig Livingstone that didn't strike you as falling within that realm, that would have been noticeable to someone who was reviewing him from the inside, not necessarily from the FBI agent, that might have been noticeable from, let's say, Mr. Kennedy's vantage point? A He didn't want the job. That's number one. He flatly didn't want the job. Now, why hire someone who doesn't want that particular job, who wants a better job? I think even he said that in testimony that he didn't want the job. Q Without revealing anything in Mr. Livingstone's background, did you ever have any conversations with Mr. Kennedy regarding Mr. Livingstone's background, or do you know if the agent that reviewed his background did? A Once again, we are going to go into the privacy problem here. Mr. Hauser. I think you could answer whether or not you had a conversation. You have to be cautious about any characterization of content of the file. If you can do that. BY MS. OLSON: Q Did you ever meet with Mr. Kennedy concerning Mr. Livingstone's background? A Yes. Q Do you know if any of the other agents at the White House, Mr. Aldrich, was there -- do you know if he met with Mr. Kennedy regarding Mr. Livingstone? A Yes. Apparently Mr. Kennedy asked Mr. Aldrich the same inappropriate question. Q If he could work with a man like Craig Livingstone? A Yes. Q Do you know what Mr. Aldrich's response was? A Yes, it was more of a definite "no" than mine. Q Were you present when that happened? A Mr. Aldrich related that to me. Q And if you recall what he related, you said it was more definite than yours? A Well, I think I waffled a little bit saying that I could work with him, but he wouldn't be my first choice. Gary probably said, he wouldn't be my choice if he was the last man on Earth. Now, I'm paraphrasing here. Q I understand. I wanted to ask you a question. Did you ever have occasion where any Clinton administration employees came to you and asked you for background information or information on the Travel Office employees? A Yes. Q Can you just describe that? A I can specifically recall during my interviews with Mr. William Kennedy and Mr. Jeff Eller that during the course of our interviews they brought up -- not I -- they brought up the subject of my experience at the White House, the fact that I had been there for a number of years, and did I know anything about the Travel Office. And I have been misquoted in the press saying that I gave information out of the FBI files. I didn't have their files with me, so I couldn't have given it to them. Q What information did you give them? A The information I was giving to Mr. Kennedy and Eller was innocent information that was intended to correct what I saw as their misrepresentations about the lifestyles and the honesty and the political backgrounds of the individuals in the Travel Office. And that was what I was talking about. Q And was that information based upon your presence at the White House and your observance in talking to people that they knew outside of the context of a background investigation? A Right. Q Did Patsy Thomasson ever ask you about their backgrounds? A Patsy Thomasson made some rather caustic remarks about the Travel Office employees, and I don't remember whether I talked to her specifically -- I mean, I don't remember the occasion for my conversation with her, whether it was because I was talking to her about her own background investigation or about whether she was a supervisor or co-worker of an employee. And I don't remember the time frame as well as I do the other two conversations. But I am sure I talked to Mr. Kennedy and Mr. Eller prior to any word of them being fired. Q And so, they were fired on May 19th, 1993. Do you know if it was in the May time period? A It was prior to the May 19th time period. Quite a while before, I would think. Q And did you ever hear any accusations that the Travel Office employees were all Republicans or Bush supporters? I know you had mentioned -- A Mr. Bowie said that, and Mr. Eller and Mr. Kennedy and Ms. Thomasson were under that impression. Q And were you able to tell them your view of them? A I told them. They didn't believe me or chose not to believe me. Q And what did you tell them? A I told them that they weren't particularly political; that some of them were Democrats and some of them had voted for Bill Clinton. I told them that they weren't living beyond their lifestyles. I remember one conversation where Mr. Kennedy -- I had just bought an airplane, the one that almost killed me, and I said to him, Bill, if you have been in Washington as long as Billy and I have been here, we have small mortgages, and we can afford, you know, houseboats and airplanes. And he said, he made a crack to me, maybe we ought to open up a case on you, Dennis. Mr. Kennedy was complaining to me that he couldn't find a suitable place to live here in Washington. So, yes, I do remember having a number of conversations with Mr. Kennedy about the Travel Office. Q Were you aware of Barney Brasseux's wife's work; that she was a Vice President of a major cooperation? A No, I didn't know that. Q And made quite a substantial income? A Well, I knew that John McSweeney's wife was wealthy. I did tell them that, because John McSweeney is a neighbor of mine. He was a retired policeman. Had his pension, a GS-13. I think Billy Dale's wife was a GS-13, Billy Dale was a 15. And I said, add this all up. These people are not living beyond their means. They weren't from Arkansas. Q Did there come a time right before the firings when Mr. Kennedy talked with you about some undisclosed event that might be of concern or that the FBI had been called? Do you recall any conversation with Mr. Kennedy concerning his calling in the FBI for guidance? A You may be referring to the night before they were fired. Q Did you talk to Mr. Kennedy then? A Yes. Q Can you describe that? A Well, let me give you a little background about what happened to me that night. Mr. Kennedy had asked me to do something that I unwisely did. He asked me to put a memo to him about how I would improve the program, the background investigation program. And at first I kept telling Mr. Kennedy, you shouldn't ask me to do this. This is not my position to do this. And he kept calling me names. Q Calling you names? Besides Agent Sculimbrene? A Bureaucratic wuss and names that -- worse. Q But to that effect? A I still don't like to use swear words in front of women. But anyways, I unwisely did give him a memo, and it was a gentleman's agreement that this was going to be between Bill Kennedy and Dennis Sculimbrene. Q Why were you worried that this memo would go elsewhere? A Because I was trying to tell him that the Bureau is the Bureau, and if they think that I am doing something that I shouldn't be doing -- and I shouldn't be doing this, I told him. But I was just trying to help -- I was trying not to be a bureaucratic wuss. I was trying to do what I thought was the best for the administration and in turn helping myself out, because I thought it would make things work better. I gave him the memo. And the day before the firings, Bill Kennedy -- we were called to Bill Kennedy's office with my supervisor Tom Reneghan and Gary Aldrich. And that's when Mr. Kennedy tells my supervisor that, you know, Dennis has been a big help to me. He gave me this memo. And my supervisor's eyeballs got real big because agents aren't supposed to do things like that. Q Let's describe, just to make the record clear, what kind of information was in the memo. What was the purpose of the memo to serve? A To make the spin process, the background investigation process, better. Q So were you suggesting ways that the FBI could improve it as well as the White House? A Yes. One of the things I suggested was a really outlandish thing; that the White House people and headquarters and his office get together and have a meeting of the minds because headquarters had always fought that. They never wanted to have us present while the White House was present. You know, seems like makes common sense, doesn't it? I mean, I had worked for a major corporation for three years, and I guarantee you that a major corporation when they have a problem, they call everybody in, from the people that work down to the line, to the middle manager, to the sales force, the production people. Everybody is involved if you have a problem. But for some reason or another headquarters absolutely steadfastly refused to have a meeting with the guys at the White House, the guys and gals at the White House, the Counsel's Office and headquarters. And that was one of the things that I thought that we should do and my suggestion. Q Was this a memo that you typed up in a formal way? A I typed it up on my computer either at work or at home. Q And was it addressed to Bill Kennedy in a memo form? A It was addressed to Bill Kennedy, yes. And it wasn't an official document. It was something that I wrote to Bill Kennedy between the two of us. And ever since that time, you know, I stood back from Bill Kennedy. Q So, I wanted to go back to him calling you in his office, and he mentioned to Tom what great help you had been, how you had given him all of these great ideas to improve the system, and what else happened? A Well, he said -- he said as we were leaving, he put his arms around both of us, which I do not like, and said, boy, you guys are really going to be glad I kept you out of what's going to happen tomorrow. And what happened tomorrow was the firing. And he was telling us that he did us a favor by going around us or not getting us involved in the Travel Office firings and the criminal investigation that subsequently followed. Q And you recall this was the day before the firing? A Yes. Q Was Mr. Reneghan still there when Mr. Kennedy put his arms around you? A I believe he was, and I believe he heard the conversation. He sort of verified that Mr. Kennedy told him about the memo that he had written. Q Did you ever have a meeting with Bernard Nussbaum about problems that you were having in the White House getting interviews with White House staff or getting the paperwork? A I may have, but one, the first meeting I had with Mr. Nussbaum sticks out like, you know, very prominently in my mind. Q Can you describe that? A Yes. Mr. Aldrich and I had to see Mr. Nussbaum because we were working on -- Gary was working on Mr. Foster's case, and I was working on Mr. Kennedy's case. The requirement was we have to talk to their supervisor, who is Mr. Nussbaum. So we decided to go over and introduce ourselves to Mr. Nussbaum for the first time and conduct the interviews and give him a general idea about who we were, how long we had been there, and what we did and what we could do for the administration. The interview had to last at least 20 minutes, I would say, maybe even longer than that. But there was no doubt in my mind that Mr. Nussbaum had this conversation with me and Gary Aldrich and that we advised him, you know, what we did. Mr. Nussbaum at first was going on about how glad he was to have us there, and about how wonderful it was that we were going to keep him on the straight and narrow, and that's when Mr. Aldrich brought up the case of Janet Reno. Q That was shortly after her nomination had been announced? A Yes. Q And was that announced prior to a lot of FBI background investigation? A Nothing, to the best of our knowledge, nothing had been done. And the reason why Gary and I knew this, we were the only two agents working at the White House at the time. And in order for the case to have even started, one of us would have had to have gotten the lead to go to the Executive Clerk's Office to see whether she had ever been nominated for any position before. So we knew that the administration had announced the third Attorney General without benefit of an FBI background investigation. And -- Q And did Mr. Nussbaum's demeanor change? A Well, yes, because Gary kind of called him on this. And Mr. Nussbaum got a little bit upset about this because I think Mr. Nussbaum knew that we knew that he was blowing smoke. Do I need to define? Mr. Hauser. Can we take a break? Ms. Olson. Yes. [Recess 3:26 to 3:31 p.m.] BY MS. OLSON: Q We are back on the record after a short break. Prior to the firing of the Travel Office employees, had you had any discussions with Bill Kennedy or Vince Foster about your duties at the White House, and were they aware generally that you and Gary Aldrich existed at the White House as FBI agents? A Certainly they knew. For example, the Assistant Director of Quantico Tony Daniels had asked me to encourage the Clinton administration to come down to Quantico to visit them, like the Bush administration had and the previous administration, and which I had participated in getting them to come down. And one of the reasons why Bill Kennedy and I had a number of discussions was because I was trying to get him to come down. He and I had a mutual interest in shooting and hunting, and I told him if he went down to Quantico, he could get to play with all the guns. Q One of the things that Mr. Kennedy said publicly as well as testified to is that he didn't know where to turn when he received this notice of alleged wrongdoing in the White House Travel Office. He didn't know who to go to for guidance. Was that the sort of thing that your office could have provided guidance to the White House on if they had contacted you? A Yes. For example, just prior to the administration -- this administration coming on board, there was a case involving the residence itself where a criminal referral was made through our office, and I sent it down to the criminal agents who handle that sort of matter. Now, let's face it, the Travel Office was nothing more than a simple criminal case, if it was that. They could have called in the city police, I guess, if they had wanted to. Q And for guidance, would you or others in your office have been able to provide guidance and liaison with the FBI if necessary? A As it was set up, that was the practice and procedure that was in place. It might not have been formalized by an agreement or memorandum, but that was the practice and procedure that was in place. And as I previously stated, conversations that I had with Mr. Nussbaum and Mr. Kennedy and I believe conversations that Gary Aldrich had had with Mr. Foster, I mean they all knew who we were and what we did and who we represented. One of the persons on that list that you pointed out, as I said, he was a headquarters agent who was assigned for that purpose. If the White House felt uncomfortable talking to the street agents who worked there, they could have contacted Mr. Seward, and he could have taken the matter to headquarters and discussed it over there. I am, to this current day, in the dark as to how Mr. Collingwood, who was then head of Congressional Affairs, how he got involved in the Travel Office. Q And I think initially Mr. Kennedy said that he called Mr. -- A Mr. Bourke. Q -- Mr. Bourke because he had talked with him in background investigations. At that point, had you had conversations with Mr. Kennedy of a sufficient nature that he would not only know you existed, but knew your function? A Knew me personally. He didn't know Mr. Bourke personally. He may have met him one time. But he knew me personally. Second of all, Mr. Bourke's job at headquarters is to handle spin investigations. Mr. Dale was not the subject of a spin investigation or a background investigation. Mr. Bourke shouldn't have been contacted at all. I mean -- enough said. Q Did you or any other agents at the White House ever write any memos, either to your supervisor, to anyone at FBI headquarters, about the problems that you were experiencing obtaining interviews and getting the necessary paperwork completed by the Clinton administration? A I wrote a few memos. I did a lot of complaining on the phone; a lot of talking to my supervisor, Tom Reneghan. I believe Gary wrote a number of memos. I have subsequently learned that most of these memos don't exist. Q Were these memos to Mr. Reneghan or other places? A Mostly to Mr. Reneghan since he was my immediate supervisor, and I would have expected him to pass them on up the line. Even though they weren't addressed to him, they may have been addressed to the director or to the spin unit, but I would have given them to Mr. Reneghan because he was my immediate supervisor. Q And can you tell me, when an FBI agent receives a phone call such as one that you have just described, is it normal procedure to do some kind of notation or memo or some kind of recordation of a phone call? A That's an agent's call, judgment call, you know. When you work the night desk, you don't record every call that comes in if the person is -- obviously has mental problems. Q But if a supervisor is having a conversation with another agent about a problem -- A I would have hoped and expected that my complaints and conversations were going up the line. Q Did you have any contact with Jim Bourke concerning investigations that you felt were being cut short or were not being fully explored, either because of time constraints by Mr. Bourke or just that he didn't think they warranted? [Witness confers with counsel off the record.] Mr. Hauser. Could you read back the question? BY MS. OLSON: Q Let me cut it down. It is a long, compound question, and let me make it a little shorter. Did you ever observe, or do you have any knowledge of Mr. Bourke cutting short any investigation or inquiry of anyone? A Yes. Q Was this in connection with anyone at the White House? A Yes. Q Was it a situation where you believed further investigation was necessary? A Yes. Q Do you know if the investigation was ultimately cut short because of a decision by Mr. Bourke? Or was it later continued? A Well, there was at least one or two cases I know where conversations were had where Mr. Bourke wanted to stop an investigation, which eventually did continue, which did eventually end up in the appointee not getting the job. Q Did you ever notify anyone else at headquarters about these incidences? A No. Q Did you ever notify your supervisor about such a problem? A Yes, I did notify my supervisor. Q And do you know whether this is written or oral? A Sometimes it was written; sometimes it was oral. Q Can you just briefly explain what an access list is for entrance to the White House? A Okay. You have to understand this is a Secret Service function, and it has nothing to do with my official duties, so what I know is just institutional. To my best knowledge, the access list is when the office run by Craig Livingstone, or Jane Dannenhauer before him, wants to bring someone in on a visit, 1-day visit or 2-week visit or some sort of thing where a background investigation is not going to be done, or where a background investigation is going to be done but this is like an initial process, that they would ask the FBI to do a name check to see whether they were wanted anywhere for whatever reason. And then the administration would tell Secret Service that they are on access for a limited period of time. And some people would be given passes that said "T" on them. People that were going to be a little bit longer had temporary passes which had dates when the pass would expire. Q Do you have any knowledge of whether Anthony Marceca was on an access list prior to his starting as a detailee in August of 1993? A I have no idea whether he would have been on the access list. I did ask Mr. Marceca what he was doing there. Q When was that? A When he first came. Q Do you know if that was in August? A I can piece events together and say yes, it was in August, because I know when he arrived now. Q What did Mr. Marceca say he was doing there? A He said that he was helping out. Gave me some very vague answers to some of my questions. When I found out that he was from western Pennsylvania, I wanted to know what he had been doing. And he gave me the impression that he had been a career army investigator and had been doing it for like 20 years. And subsequently I found out that he was a politician. And when I say "politician," I mean a political operative or whatever term you want to use. Q Did Mr. Marceca's access ever become a part of an investigation by the FBI? A Yes he was investigated because I remember Cecilia Woods doing his investigation. Q And we have talked to Cecilia Woods just as a point of reference for you. Did you ever sit down with Mr. Marceca and have any conversations about his background with him? A No. Q Did you ever go to Mr. Kennedy or Mr. Livingstone about Mr. Marceca's background? A No. Q Do you know if Cecilia Woods did? A Nope. Q Did you ever discuss Mr. Marceca's background with Cecilia Woods? A I believe she told me -- can I tell what she told me? Mr. Hauser. No, I think you can say you discussed it, but not as to what precisely she told. Q Was it information that was actually contained in the background investigation, or information that she knew that she didn't put in the background investigation? A That's too overbroad. Q In other words, let me explain the reason why I am asking this. Director Freeh has asked that we not go into the specific background investigation with agents such as yourself. And one of the reasons why is he told the Chairman we will make available the actual background investigations so that you don't need to ask the agents that kind of information and put them in a position where they have concerns about the Privacy Act. I just want to know if it is information that would not have been contained in the background investigation that she discussed with you. Because if it's contained in the background investigation, there is no reason ever to want to get it from an FBI agent. But the Chairman will be interested if there was information about individuals that was, as you said, not put in because maybe it wasn't relevant. And point in case was the information about the First Lady and Mr. Livingstone's mother. Did Cecilia Woods tell you information that you think didn't go in the background? Mr. Hauser. The difficulty I have with that is that Mr. Sculimbrene would not know because he didn't do the background report as to what was put in the report or not. So I don't believe he could differentiate between that. And I think it puts him in a difficult position in trying to respond. BY MS. OLSON: Q If you didn't read and have no reference, then I agree, I withdraw the question. A Thank you. Thank you. Q Is it true that you didn't read Mr. Marceca's background and wouldn't know what information went in and what information didn't? A The agents don't get to read the whole report. That is the rules. Compartmentalization. Q You're right. Once again, do you know if Mr. Marceca ever received a White House clearance? A I don't recall. Q Detailees such as Mr. Marceca, do they receive full background investigations, and would they normally be sent back to the White House after completion? A Under the Reagan and Bush administration, anybody that was working there for 6 months had to have a full-field background investigation. I never could quite figure out what the rules were in the Clinton administration. RPTS COLCHICO DCMN HERZFELD Q But that was a pretty standard rule previously? A Yes, previously, for detailees or for anybody, you know, private contractor, whatever. If they were going to be there for 6 months, they had to have a full-field background done. Q And I take it there were individuals in the White House that had been there for 6 months without a full-field background investigation? A Yes, there were. Q And were some of these individuals in senior positions at the White House? A Yes. Q Did you do the background investigation of Craig Livingstone? A Yes, I did; I mean, part of it. I did his interview. Mr. Hauser. Could I just interrupt? I want to go back to the previous question so it's clear in my mind and it's clear for the record that they would not -- could not be there for 6 months unless they had a background investigation, was that the initiation of a background investigation or -- The Witness. If the administration thought they were going to be there for 6 months, I think that was a general rule. Now, that was not a steadfast thing. Mr. Hauser. That they would do a background investigation before the person was brought on? The Witness. Sometimes before the person was brought on, but more than likely the person was already there before we started the background investigation. Mr. Hauser. Okay. BY MS. OLSON: Q And in previous administrations, did they initiate the investigation before the 6 months was up? A Usually they tried to, yes. Q Other than the information that you learned during the course of the background investigation of Mr. Livingstone, did he make any other misrepresentations to you of facts that you later learned were not true? And I am asking you, because of your lawyer's objection, to try to differentiate between misrepresentations in his background investigations and maybe things he just said to you on a social basis when you were there. Mr. Hauser. Again, the difficulty here would be to the extent that that might be true, it might then rely upon the content of the results of the background information to determine that. Ms. Olson. Okay. Mr. Hauser. Which I think would be a problem for Mr. Sculimbrene in answering that question. BY MS. OLSON: Q Then I will let the question just hang there unanswered. Other than the statement about Mr. Livingstone's mother knowing the First Lady, was there other information that he gave to you that you didn't put in his background, which you later learned to be untrue? A I would rather not answer that question, for the same reason, privacy concerns. Q Since this question may be submitted by the Chairman, our understanding is that the Privacy Act pretty clearly does not apply if the Chairman of this committee were to ask you to reveal information directly to him. Minority has voiced an objection that they think it gets grayer as it's staff asking you to reveal Privacy Act information, and based on that, I wanted to make a very clear question. What I am asking is if Mr. Livingstone made statements to you that you later learned were not true, but they were not recorded either in the 302 or in documents that you sent over to the White House, we would like to know the content of those statements and what they were. And these would be statements that we could not learn by reading his background investigation, and I will leave it at that for the Chairman to determine if he wants to submit that. A Okay. Mr. Hauser. But let me say, too, just so that there's no misunderstanding, I mean, Mr. Sculimbrene is willing to answer the questions, but we feel based upon guidance that we have received that it would be inappropriate for him to do that. So we want to be clear that we want to cooperate with the committee to the fullest extent possible. If he is permitted to answer that question under the Privacy Act and with the blessing of the FBI, he is pleased to do it. Ms. Olson. Okay. Mr. Hauser. If he has information that is responsive to your question. The Witness. Let me embellish this question, too. If I find out that someone has told me an untruth, it's difficult for me to open an investigation from where I sit. I mean, I don't have the power -- I did not have the power to do that. I basically had to sit and, you know, wait for the next investigation to come along before I could -- before I could bring that up. That's just the way -- I mean, once it was adjudicated, it was like that's it. That's over with. BY MS. OLSON: Q So if you were to learn information about an individual after their clearance had already gone through -- A Unless this is a criminal matter. Q But just an untruth, like if someone had said, I was CEO of IBM, his investigation was approved, 3 months later you found out that's not true -- A Yes. Q -- you would have to wait until the 5-year reinvestigation as the normal course? A It would not be my -- in my position or my power to reinstitute an investigation. Q And as a followup, the followup question would be if that kind of information about Livingstone ever came to light, which I will submit to the Chairman to see if he wishes to have that question submitted about Mr. Livingstone. Do you know when Mr. Livingstone got his security clearance in the White House? A No, I do not. Q Do you know when he got his permanent pass? A No, I do not, not personally. Q Did you do Bill Kennedy's background investigation? A I did his interview, yes. Q Did you go to Bernie Nussbaum about any problems in Mr. Kennedy's background? A Well, I think I have already said that I went to talk to Mr. Nussbaum as his supervisor. Q Okay. For an interview? A For an interview. Q But I am asking, other than an interview, did you have any conversations with Mr. Nussbaum which would concern items in Mr. Kennedy's background? A Can I talk to my counsel here? Q Certainly. [Pause.] A The answer is that I only interviewed Mr. Nussbaum regarding Mr. Kennedy as his supervisor. Q Did you later become aware of any information on Mr. Kennedy concerning either his background or information contained in his background and go to his supervisor based on that? A I would rather not answer that question, based on privacy. Q Are you able to at least do a yes or no? Mr. Hauser. The difficulty we have with that is if you are asking was there a meeting and was that meeting based on derogatory information, then that's a characterization of what is in the FBI file. Ms. Olson. I will leave that question hanging then, too. BY MS. OLSON: Q Do you know when Mr. Kennedy's background was completed? A No, I do not. Q Okay. Do you know when he got his clearance, if it was in '93 or '94? A No, I do not. I do not know that. Q Did you do the background on David Watkins? A No, I didn't. Q Do you know who did? A Gary did. Q Do you have any knowledge of any efforts by the First Lady or her staff to have Mr. Gary Walters removed from the White House? A Yes. Q And was that involved in a background investigation or just from being at the White House? A Just from being at the White House. Q Can you describe those then? A Oh, geez. A number of people who I would rather not identify because they still work there told me that -- Q That is fine. A -- the First Lady was angry and upset with Mr. Walters because she thought that the staff was talking out of school. She held him responsible for the staff doing that. And that's really all I would really like to say right now. Q Did -- Mr. Hauser. Could I interrupt just for one second? Ms. Olson. Yes. Mr. Hauser. I think that Mr. Sculimbrene's concern, as he alluded to, is that he doesn't want to disclose the identities of individuals who may have communicated to him for fear of some sort of adverse personnel action to them. The Witness. Right. Mr. Hauser. On the other hand, if there is information that is responsive to Mrs. Olson's question without revealing that, then I think you should go forward. The Witness. And I am also concerned that, you know, I don't want to spread rumors about the First Lady if they are not true. I don't -- I don't want to be portrayed as doing that, either. BY MS. OLSON: Q No, one of the things is, please, if the basis of your knowledge is information from someone else, we want to clearly have that and clearly have it on the record that it's not that you saw a conversation or that -- but that you were told about a conversation. A I was told that by a number of individuals, that that, in fact, was what was going on. Mind you, these individuals may be in -- may have been in error about their assumptions, and I took no official action because it wasn't my job to do such. But I can't help it if someone comes up to me and tells me something or sends me something through the mail. If something is on my desk and it's addressed to me and I open it up, I read it, I, you know, I -- Q Did you receive any documentation or letters concerning any efforts by the First Lady to get rid of Gary Walters? A Documents? No. About Gary Walters? No. Q Or any memos or any letters or written material that would shed light on an effort by the First Lady or her staff to get rid of Gary Walters? A Are you talking about documents again? Q Anything that might come on your desk, either in an anonymous way -- A Once again, in order for me to answer this question correctly and precisely, I would have to bring in a background investigation that I was involved in. So I would rather not address that question. Q Did there come a time when you became aware that a White House usher had been fired? A Yes. Q And can you please tell us the circumstances of that? A This happened while I was still in recuperation, so everything I knew about it came via the telephone. Q Can you please tell us who -- I take it this was thirdhand information? A Yes. I was called by the press on this, too, and I told them I knew nothing. But I was aware that Mr. Emory had been fired allegedly for calling Mrs. Bush. Q Do you know if Mr. Emory was reinvestigated out of time? A I was contacted by the press and asked that question, and I was asked if I was aware that he had been investigated out of context. But I frankly do not remember that for a fact. It's not saying that it didn't happen, because I know a few people whose backgrounds were done out of time, out of sequence. Q That was my followup. A Yes. Q Do you know of anyone else whose backgrounds were done out of sequence? A Yes. Q Were these White House resident staff, or were these other parts of the White House? A One of these was a White House resident staff who comes to mind. Q Who was that? A Ms. Tedrick. I can't remember her first name. I am getting tired. She worked in the -- she worked downstairs in the Curator's Office. Q Her last name was Tedrick? A Tedrick, yes. Q And anyone else you knew that was investigated out of time? A Well, if they asked me about my investigation, I think I was investigated out of time. Q Other than yourself? A Pardon me? Q Other than yourself. A No, I can't recall right now. Q Why was Ms. Tedrick being reinvestigated out of time? A I only know that by rumor and allegation as to why -- what she was accused of doing. Q Okay. Did she ever -- A Talk to me personally? Q -- tell you, or did you ever have the 5-year reinvestigation date confirmed that it was out of time? A No. Q Did there come a time when you became aware that White House telephone operators were being given top secret clearances by Craig Livingstone? A Yes. Q Can you please tell us the circumstances of that? A I was watching the televised hearings, and there was a telephone number at the White House which the White House couldn't seem to find out who the number was assigned to. Q Were these hearings the Whitewater hearings? A The Whitewater hearings. I believe they were Senate Whitewater hearings, although I kind of get your hearings, the Clinger hearings, and the Whitewater hearings mixed up, and I really am getting tired. You hear my voice is getting -- Q Yes. And I am almost done. A Good. Stop. Q I am probably going to stop and submit any additional questions by writing. A But I think this is important. When I heard the White House saying that they didn't know who had these telephone numbers, I just kind of -- I said, they could find out in 5 minutes if they really wanted to. And I found out, and I believe that there are records existing that would tell you who those numbers are, because if a telephone is put in at the White House, a human being has to do it, and a record has to be made of it. That's the rules. So anybody that says you can't find out something like that is -- it's not being completely forthright. Q Do you recall if this was a telephone number connected to calls made by the First Lady immediately following Mr. Foster's death? A Yes. Q And whose phone number was that? A You know, I can't remember who it was. Q But you did look it up? A Well, I was told -- I was told that they could find out real quickly whose number it was. Q And you don't recall? A Whose number? Q Yes. A No, I can't recall. Q Can you tell us if telephone operators were given top secret clearances as a result of that event? A I was told that by one who complained to me, a person, an individual who I would rather not name, complained to me about being given a top secret clearance because this person felt it was an effort for -- by the administration to shut the telephone operators and the telephone service up. Q If you could explain, based upon your knowledge, what would that do? How would that shut up a telephone operator if they were given a top secret clearance? A Well, if you have never had a top secret clearance given to you before, and all of a sudden they are going to give you one, a person would sometimes be intimidated by that sort of action. Q And the penalties that go along with disclosing? A And the penalties that go along with it, and there's confusion about what you can say and what you can't say. And I -- this was the last time I ever talked to Craig in an effort to try to help him out. I said, you know, I think it's inappropriate to do this. Q Did he admit that he had done it? A He told me it's none of my business. Q I take it there was another word before "business"? A Yes. Q Do you know if those clearances were rescinded of the telephone operators or what happened? A I believe they were given. Whether they were rescinded, I don't know. Q Were you aware of any individuals that were retiring in the first year of the Clinton administration because of the way the White House was being run? A I believe a number of people retired during the first year. Q Did they tell you that they were just retiring because it was time or because of the way things were being run at the White House? A Because of the way things were being run at the White House, and -- I am getting awfully tired. Q Okay. I will leave that. We will probably do a followup, if you don't mind. I will leave that question open, and we can do a followup on that of people retiring. The only other question I will leave open, and I know you are tired, and I don't want any witness to go beyond tired, but I just want to put it on the record, if any incidents were brought to your attention or you heard of, by individuals working in the White House, of activities in the White House that may not have gone into a background investigation, but people working there that were upset to the point of coming to you about activities, conduct, and this would have been an area of concern? A A person I think probably should be talked to is Frank Sobel, who was a detailee from the Department of Energy who worked in the Counsel's Office. He had come into our office a number of times expressing his disbelief or whatever about what was going on, and I believe Frank is a lifelong Democrat and has, you know, very -- well, he would be a very good person to talk to. And also Mr. Kennedy's secretary, his first secretary, whose name completely escapes me now. But I remember she was a middle-aged black woman, and perhaps you could find out who she was and talk to her, because she had -- she had expressed some reservations to me about what was going on. But I can't really remember what they were specifically now. Ms. Olson. We are down on the record. It's after 4:00. I thank you. I am sorry it went so long. I do appreciate you coming in, and if there are any followup or any questions, we will submit them. Once again, the Minority will be given this deposition after you have had a chance to review it. It will be ready in 24 hours. They are usually pretty quick. If they are not, we will call you. Just call us, and we will set up a time. The Minority will be given a copy after you have reviewed the transcript, and if they have any questions, I have already asked them to submit them in writing to us. Thank you very much. We are down. [Whereupon, at 4:08 p.m., the deposition concluded.]
